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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Evacuation form Afghanistan- women?

309 replies

Aprilinspringtimeshower · 17/08/2021 12:41

So saw this article and the accompanying photo www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/afghanistan-striking-image-appears-to-show-640-people-fleeing-kabul-in-packed-us-military-plane?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is what concerns me- where are the women? The overwhelming majority of people on that plane are men, adult males. There are a few women and some children.
Yet it is the women who are in greatest danger. Young girls, older women. Single women who won’t be able to support themselves once stopped from going outside unaccompanied, professional women who will be banned from working .

Everyone said that the war was about women’s right and way of life. And that what is happening now is a danger to the rights and well-being of women.

Surely it is women who are the ones that need to get out of the country safely and be offered asylum- so where are they? Why wasn’t that plane full of mostly women or even equal amounts of women and the men that accompany them.

I don’t hear the government saying anything to target protection and refuge for women specifically. And to young girls and women who are in real danger

AIBU that it is always the men that get the preference, and that really no one cares enough to actually provide proper protection to the women and girls ..it’s just all sound bites and noble words

OP posts:
Blossomtoes · 17/08/2021 21:42

Can we agree not to engage with a certain poster any more? This is is such a heartfelt and important thread and the constant derailments are incredibly distracting.

Normaigai · 17/08/2021 21:42

@pollylocketpickedapocket

Well speaking as a parent(mother) I’d stay and be bloody executed and let my daughter go than leave her at the mercy of the taliban. At least she’d have a chance at life.
Yes of course (although none of us actually know what we would really do unless we've been unlucky enough to be in that situation) but it's not clear that's an option that anyone legitimately got to make. It's not like the US visa people were saying 'you can nominate someone else to go in your place if you want'!
Porcupineintherough · 17/08/2021 21:42

@pollylocketpickedapocket but that's not how it works is it? If you are entitled to a place on an evacuation flight, you cant just send your daughter in your place. And what would you do - just send her to travel through Kabul on her own and hope the Taliban dont stop her? Send her to the airport and hope she doesnt get shot?

youvegottenminuteslynn · 17/08/2021 21:45

@LifesNotEnidBlyton

I posted just one small comment on a thread to share my thoughts, and then I left the thread. Since then I have had comment after comment individually to me

If multiple people make 'comment after comment' taking issue with something you say, isn't it worth reflecting on whether what you said is the issue rather than expressing your anger at people taking issue with what you said? I think so.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on your approach to this.

Normaigai · 17/08/2021 21:45

@snowballer

You seriously expect Afghani men to stand to one side for women? It won't happen, the Taliban may be the extremists but within the culture women are less than second class citizens.

If you know so much, at least get the terminology correct. "Afghani" is a unit of currency. "Afghan" denotes nationality. It's a common mistake but one worth getting right when making such sweeping generalisations

I also suspect that there are a number of the Afgan men who do think of women as second class citizens who would prefer to die than have the the shame of their wife being raped. If you view your wife as your property, not being capable of protecting her is a pretty big deal. It's not as simple as 'my wife, my property, what happens to her doesn't matter to me'.
LifesNotEnidBlyton · 17/08/2021 21:47

There has been some real irony on this thread from people who want to be able to comment to individuals but when that person stands up for themself and says it's turning into bullying and asks people not to comment individually to them because it is derailing the thread those posters then make it out to be the fault of the person they did this too.

It's easy to not contribute to the important problem and just to pick on individuals but then blame them.

This thread has totally lost its intention.

Some real bullies out in force against people who dont agree with them.

LooksGood · 17/08/2021 21:47

@pollylocketpickedapocket

Well speaking as a parent(mother) I’d stay and be bloody executed and let my daughter go than leave her at the mercy of the taliban. At least she’d have a chance at life.
I'm sure lots of people on that plane would die for their children, as you would.

But who's going to give a visa to an unaccompanied child? We can't judge people on fantasy scenarios.

TractorAndHeadphones · 17/08/2021 21:48

@Normaigai

You see this discussion is interesting unlike and argument on who should shut up first. Should the 'list makers' have an obligation to recognize that if there are women and men who both qualify, the woman may/will be less likely to come forwards because they think they're less worthy. And is so, is processing first come first serve acceptable or is it inherently sexist. And if inherently sexist (which I suspect it probably is), is it the type of sexism that is acceptable in the rushed circumstances or is it only acceptable because women are excepted to accept sexism. If for some reason, it was all women applying on first come first serve, are we sure the planes would be filled with women.
A woman who works in eligible roles in a place like Afghanistan is no shrinking violet. I can guarantee that. They would be the first to demand their rights. Or be well connected enough such that they get given them anyway.

The problematic assumption here is that there's an orderly queue of people lining up with papers 'proving' eligiblity.

In reality intelligence services are a messy network of transactions, most of which take place undercover with as little proof as possible. There is no single way of proving eligibility. It'll be a mixture of people vouching for colleagues, people having some proof (say some insider knowledge) and people who have no business being eligible but knowing the right person and slipping through.

The ones on the first planes out are those who were contactable on short notice and known to the military. Direct employees on the payroll. Translators, engineers, etc. Not all Afghans - a lot of the men look like foreign nationals employed by the military (who might not have any family in Afghanistan, so no women to consider).

The next batch will likely be more balanced because people will have had time to gather up their families and make their way to the processing centres (or whatever it is) amidst the turmoil. Even for these it's not about men vs women but who can prove their identity. A well connected woman who has a brother who already left for example and whom the Taliban know - she would go ahead of a translator whom nobody knows and has no proof of connection.

A neat 'binary' scenario in which there is ' a man and woman who both qualify and it's really really obvious' is very unlikely. A 'woman not coming foward' is as unlikely as a 'man not coming forward' because people would go as a family - unless there's no time, and the choice if for whoever's eligible (man or woman) to wait for family or go ahead first.

NOW CAVEAT : the only scenario I can think of is that a man and woman who both qualify but cannot prove it. But they believe the man instead of the woman. Then yes, this is sexist. However again it's unlikely that a man or woman turn up alone.

TractorAndHeadphones · 17/08/2021 21:48

Also this is an interesting discussion actually barring the derailers!

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 17/08/2021 21:50

the original unfairness in the system is permeating through the rescue

Yes ^^ this.

LifesNotEnidBlyton · 17/08/2021 21:50

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@LifesNotEnidBlyton

I posted just one small comment on a thread to share my thoughts, and then I left the thread. Since then I have had comment after comment individually to me

If multiple people make 'comment after comment' taking issue with something you say, isn't it worth reflecting on whether what you said is the issue rather than expressing your anger at people taking issue with what you said? I think so.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on your approach to this. [/quote]
As said people can have thoughts of thier own. I wasnt the only poster to think as I did. But unfortunately the only people who got individual comments back were the people who a group of posters didnt agree with. You can post on a thread another sort of thought without it turning into a thread about your comment, and when I explained people still kept commenting just to me, so I think if people really cared about the thread they wouldn't have turned it into this and it is them who have made the thread about a comment they didn't agree with ironically.

kungfupannda · 17/08/2021 21:51

@Blossomtoes

Can we agree not to engage with a certain poster any more? This is is such a heartfelt and important thread and the constant derailments are incredibly distracting.
Agreed.
TractorAndHeadphones · 17/08/2021 21:51

Also to add - above last scenario while possible is also unlikely because of the low number of women in the service. Even in 'empowered' countries like the U.K the number of women in intelligence and diplomatic services is shockingly low.

I suppose the biggest sexism is if a man manages to blag his way through and a woman doesn't as happens every day in multiple job interviews and workplaces across the U.K. Given that they both have no connection at all . More stringent proof demanded of the man compared to the woman..

LifesNotEnidBlyton · 17/08/2021 21:56

Good that people are finally agreeing with me. Even if they did need to make it out to their idea. This thread has attracted the bullies it seems. Who want to comment to people but cry derailment when the person they pick on says something back.... and tells then that by commenting back it was they who were derailing.... and continuing to do so by then talking like children about the person they want everyone to not talk to anymore, and will likely do so again when they see that said person is still calling out their behaviour.

Normaigai · 17/08/2021 21:59

I think there is a group of women working directly for foreign governments who are extremely vocal. There will be other women who are just trying to do a day's work - remember it's been 20 years of this probably being a risk that's worth the extra pay. It's only relatively recently that risk profile has changed and by then it was probably too late.

I agree with you though that there isn't a neat orderly line. Even within that women (and people with children) are inherently less likely to make it to the front (strength/size even ignoring any cultural issues) and there simply hasn't been time for everyone to be processed.

My honest view is that the nature of first come first serve probably is inherently sexist but overall it's also a type of sexism that it's just not realistic to fix in these circumstances. People are doing the best they can. The people processing the visas also (mainly) aren't the ones to blame and a lot are staying at great personal risk when they are guaranteed a spot on the next flight they want.

What I would find interesting is a review on whether the sex effectively plays a role in the decision on who is contracted directly and who isn't. Are 'female' roles more likely to be contracted out and as a result less likely to be considered worthy of protection.

Normaigai · 17/08/2021 22:00

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

the original unfairness in the system is permeating through the rescue

Yes ^^ this.

Yes also to this! Exactly.
kungfupannda · 17/08/2021 22:00

@TractorAndHeadphones

Also this is an interesting discussion actually barring the derailers!
Can't quote your long post for some reason, so replying to this one. Very balanced post putting your finger on something I was trying to work out how to articulate. The group of men pictured leaving have been cast up as somehow taking something that could otherwise have gone to women and children, but that's not how it will be working. There are multiple groups of people at more risk than others for various reasons, but not all of them have a chance at a spot on a plane out of there. For some it will be as simple as living too far from the airport to risk trying to get there. Most of the men pictured will fall into a prioritised category. There may be women equally or more at risk but not in a way that bumps them up the evacuation list of a foreign power. There's a lot of sexism tied up in the reasons why that is the case, but it's not a simple 'man vs woman - man wins' calculation.

And all of this is a distraction from the very serious questions that need to be levelled at our own government and others about the way this has been allowed to play out. We could have saved an awful lot of those at-risk women - and men.

Normaigai · 17/08/2021 22:07

I think the figures I saw (I think for the UK) is that withdrawal was announced in April (?). By August they had processed 2000 of the 20000 people they agreed were eligible (and that's on the direct employment rules). Only earlier this month they told the British Council scholarship winners 'sorry we can't process your visas, you need to defer a year'. This is the disgrace. We knew we were withdrawing. There were a lot of people predicting this outcome (within 6 months of not this quickly) and the governments didn't have a plan that would have saved people even if it had taken six months.

TractorAndHeadphones · 17/08/2021 22:22

@Normaigai

I think there is a group of women working directly for foreign governments who are extremely vocal. There will be other women who are just trying to do a day's work - remember it's been 20 years of this probably being a risk that's worth the extra pay. It's only relatively recently that risk profile has changed and by then it was probably too late.

I agree with you though that there isn't a neat orderly line. Even within that women (and people with children) are inherently less likely to make it to the front (strength/size even ignoring any cultural issues) and there simply hasn't been time for everyone to be processed.

My honest view is that the nature of first come first serve probably is inherently sexist but overall it's also a type of sexism that it's just not realistic to fix in these circumstances. People are doing the best they can. The people processing the visas also (mainly) aren't the ones to blame and a lot are staying at great personal risk when they are guaranteed a spot on the next flight they want.

What I would find interesting is a review on whether the sex effectively plays a role in the decision on who is contracted directly and who isn't. Are 'female' roles more likely to be contracted out and as a result less likely to be considered worthy of protection.

'Female' roles are more likely but only because they're the lower paid roles like cooking,cleaning, etc. Many of the roles that require clearance will be held by men which is probably indirectly sexist. I don't know if embassy support/admin staff count. However there's also the overarching matter of 'connections' - Afghanistan is riddled with corruption. What is likely to actually happen is that those who can will pay off the relevant people to let their whole families go - women, children, the lot. The middle/upper classes who have managed to scrape together some money. Once the internationals have gotten as many people out as they deem fit they'll leave... and the rest will have to fend for themselves.

Of course this depends on whether the Taliban hold off and allow people to escape - it is in their interests to let some through, as long as they have enough remaining to make an example of.

TractorAndHeadphones · 17/08/2021 22:23

@Normaigai

I think the figures I saw (I think for the UK) is that withdrawal was announced in April (?). By August they had processed 2000 of the 20000 people they agreed were eligible (and that's on the direct employment rules). Only earlier this month they told the British Council scholarship winners 'sorry we can't process your visas, you need to defer a year'. This is the disgrace. We knew we were withdrawing. There were a lot of people predicting this outcome (within 6 months of not this quickly) and the governments didn't have a plan that would have saved people even if it had taken six months.
Yes agreed.. and leaving people to fight over scraps...
Normaigai · 17/08/2021 22:33

I think my main hope is the Taliban have learnt enough about PR in 20 years that they may not go in as hard as we all fear because they recognised they need to play the game for aid money. There's clearly not full control over the action of individuals and there is no suggestion Afghanistan is going to be somewhere you want to be a woman or someone with the wrong foreign connections but maybe, just maybe, it will be better than 20 years ago. I have to believe that the last 20 years hasn't been entirely for nothing. It may be completely naive but I'd prefer to keep that naivity as long as possible because what can I legitimately do to change anything?

Anyway, it's very late here (not the UK) so I will leave the remainder of the discussions to others.

MistySkiesAfterRain · 17/08/2021 23:10

Just thought I'd share - some interesting stats. Around 2/3 of those seeking/granted asylum in the UK in the last decade were male.

migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migration-to-the-uk-asylum/

ClareBlue · 18/08/2021 00:26

We sent in our sons and young men 20 years ago to fight in a distant Country against a enemy they couldn't engage in traditional warefare. In the meantime we had interlectual debate about the legacy of the flag they fought under, cancelled people who wouldn't condem leaders of the last generation who fought an enemy, ripped down statues and vilified patriotic thoughts, and they literally gave their lives to protect women and children from real persecution. But on returning the intellectual debate was about toxic masculinity, they said not all men and tried to understand but we're then labelled part of the problem for saying that. The communities that provided the men that died fighting against a regime that persecuted women were labelled ignorant bigots for voting against a European project that had no relevance or meaning in their lives but all they could see was migration of people that competed for housing and healthcare and jobs whilst they tried to support their families. The elite debated BLM but they don't see colour when their black buddy is bleeding out in Helmand or their mixed race Corporal is the first to check the incendery device. But the interlectual elite say they are entitled while privaleged and ate part of the problem. They come back home and can not understand someone losing their livlihood for using an incorrect pronoun and been labelled transphobic, when they have seen homosexual people hanging in the street. But they are labelled part of the problem.

And now we want them to go and do it all again.

FemmePerdue · 18/08/2021 00:54

@clareblue that's a lot of mental leaps. It seems to center men in a debate about evacuating women?

ClareBlue · 18/08/2021 01:19

Yes, you're right. It is just the number if different threads around the whole topic and this probably isn't the right angel on this thread. I'm leaving it as I not sure about the areas around this.

Swipe left for the next trending thread