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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think this is CF expectation

107 replies

Habber · 08/08/2021 17:04

Backstory is my kids DF (my ex) was a bit crap, had them once a week for 1 night, never took a day off if they were sick (even though he worked closer to school than I did) rarely helped with childcare during school holidays, never helped pay for any childcare while we both worked and gave bare minimum child support. His family never helped with kids and if he did ever take them on holiday in summer it was always in term time which was no help at all in terms of 6 week summer holidays.

Now he has a child under 5 and expects our older kids (over 16) to be his free childcare for their sibling all day during the holidays. Neither of my kids drive yet so there is a lot of back and forth with picking them up and dropping off. One of my children chose to say no thanks to it this year and under pressure from ex and older child has now given in. I was dragged into it when one of my kids was pressuring the other one to agree and now they aren’t speaking to me because I said he was being a CF.

AIBU to think you book your own paid for childcare like the rest of working parents have to? Just because you are family doesn’t mean they must babysit for you to save money?

OP posts:

IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves · 09/08/2021 08:15

You need to support the younger one to say no and stick to it.
If the older one is keen to do it then that's up to them but they don't have the right to force the younger one to split the load.

IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves · 09/08/2021 08:16

Oh and absolutely do not assist in them getting there or back in any way whatsoever. Not a lift, not a penny, nothing.

billy1966 · 09/08/2021 08:19

OP,
I think @DeRigueurMortis has given good advice but I also believe that you shouldn't be allowing your older daughter pressurise the younger one.

Your older daughter should not be trying to guilt her younger sister.

This is a moment to say to her she should respect her siblings decision and to back off.

In effect your younger daughter needs protecting too.

Tell eldest daughter that she can be used if she wishes, that is unfortunately her choice, but that she is to leave her sibling alone.

Very unfair of her to do that and more proof of the damage that selfish man is doing.

IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves · 09/08/2021 08:19

And refuse do do it even if they pay you. It's not petty.

Billybagpuss · 09/08/2021 08:35

Have you protected them over the years for how much of an arse he’s been?

Original poster

Habber · 09/08/2021 09:32

@Billybagpuss

Have you protected them over the years for how much of an arse he’s been?

Yes I have protected them by not putting them in the middle like he does, but I couldn’t withhold them, he is their father on the birth certificates and has PR for them, I could not afford court but it did me a favour without court, he didn’t have them very much as less exposed to him, for a few hours once a week was manageable and the younger one has distanced from him in the past few years since he has another child. It’s only recently I have been a lot more honest with them because they would get so upset if I said anything they saw to be detrimental about him but they see I have separated myself from him I barely speak to him as I don’t have to and don’t involve him in their life with me because 1. He’s not really that bothered and 2. I don’t need any of his drama. I have had to be more neutral I do not discourage or encourage them over anything to do with him unless it’s like this and a total piss take. I didn’t give him any room to take the piss out of me as I never asked him for anything to do with the kids so he didn’t mess me about too much.

The older one was always going to be difficult from day 1 as he’s always managed to get her on his side. It’s so frustrating as she swings between totally understanding what I am saying but the FOG kicks in (yes I know of this and she is in deep). I said to her last night you are not responsible for this little child, their parents are! She said she knows that and that it’s wrong but next breath says oh the kids club is £90 and expensive. It’s at that point I can’t keep on at her it’s pointless. I also said she must not keep on trying to get her other sister involved it’s not fair and if she does it again maybe she needs to live with him instead as it makes us all unhappy

OP posts:

Original poster

Habber · 09/08/2021 09:38

My older daughter needs to get help for her mental well-being and I think she is now considering doing this all my efforts to get her on board with that previously failed. but I think she’s starting to understand about caring for herself not just people pleasing as it’s so stressful. This is what happens when someone is a people pleaser and why she’s dragged her sister into it, she’s so stressed about letting him down she makes bad decisions. I was hoping she would naturally disengage from him when older as working and it’s normal for kids to go get their own lives but no, he’s got a small kid she now feels responsible for it’s so wrong!

OP posts:

Whammyyammy · 09/08/2021 09:39

Id be speaking to my kids. Tell them its their choice if they wish to babysit or not, anf you'll support and back them whatever they decide

Phineyj · 09/08/2021 09:44

In the longer term, maybe get one of those Barclays Money books and use the opportunity to talk to her about money. £90 for a week is what, £20 a day with a discount for the whole day? (pretty cheap actually for a pre-schooler -- round here it's £45 for primary for a full working day). So if her father paid her, he'd need to pay twice that for one-to-one for a working day, even on the lowest minimum wage. What would she earn for that? How long would she need to work in a shop to earn that. Look up the different minimum wages for different age groups. Talk about what people need to earn to cover childcare, rent etc.

You could at least extract some financial education from this sorry situation!

Phineyj · 09/08/2021 09:45

The whole week I meant.

Catflapkitkat · 09/08/2021 10:14

How awful of your ex to pressure your daughter by telling her the price of holiday club. If she brings if up tells the £90 cost again - reply 'I know, I paid for childcare/holiday clubs for the both of you when he refused to contribute'. You are stating a fact, not bad mouthing him.

I am glad you have decided not facilitate his manipulative behaviour. As hard as it is I agree with the above posters, do not give in and give the lifts, don't let your daughter pay for the taxi's/Ubers. He should be doing it. Maybe having to stay there will bring her to her senses quicker.

Also, please make a bullet point list of all the things he didn't and doesn't do, what you listed on here - keep it near you. Read it before you have to respond to him. It's seems like after all these years he knows how to get round you.

Is it possible to arrange some nice things for you to do with the girls. Maybe a some days out, visit people, having friends over - this weekend we had a mini festival in the garden with kids inviting their friends over to camp in the garden.

Good luck OP

Howshouldibehave · 09/08/2021 10:56

How awful of your ex to pressure your daughter by telling her the price of holiday club. If she brings if up tells the £90 cost again-reply 'I know, I paid for childcare/holiday clubs for the both of you when he refused to contribute'. You are stating a fact, not bad mouthing him.

This.

I’m amazed he has this much sway over them when they only saw him for a few hours a week. He sounds awful.

Are they doing childcare for him today? Does he know you won’t be dropping/collecting the girls any more at his?

RightYesButNo · 09/08/2021 10:59

Honestly, your daughters are in a prisoner’s dilemma and I’m afraid the only way it’s going to work is if they stick together, and that’s what you should tell them.

So the prisoner’s dilemma (in case you aren’t familiar) is that two criminals are being questioned. The police have enough to charge each with a lesser crime but unless one of them talks they cannot charge them with a larger crime. The criminals cannot communicate with each other and form a plan. Each is offered a deal if they talk. Because of that, it ends up working out like this. The criminals are A and B. If A and B both betray each other, they each spend two years in prison. If A betrays B and B stays silent, A goes free and B spends 3 years in prison. If B betrays A, B goes free and A spends 3 years in prison. If neither of them talk, they each only spend 1 year in prison.

Your two DDs are being pressurised by their father. DD1 feels that DD2 betrayed her by saying no, so now she (DD1) is stuck with the three years in prison. She feels this way because you mentioned she and perhaps DD2 are both afraid their father will withhold contact with their half sibling all together. But it would be so much better if DD1 and DD2 both “stay silent” and stick together. Yes, maybe their father will have a blow up and try to pressurise them and he may even forbid them from seeing half-sibling (this might be the 1 year in prison for them). BUT it will blow over, because he holds no cards. He’s eventually going to be desperate for a free babysitter every once in a while, perhaps a Saturday night, rather than give up that resource entirely - he’s too selfish. It can just be difficult to explain to teenagers the idea of waiting for an adult man to finish having a tantrum. This is still much better than either of them being “in prison for three years” (i.e. giving up so much if their freedom to babysit the child; feeling SO pressurised by their father to do it that they’ll pay you to pick them up).

I’m sorry, truly. You cannot force your children to accept that their father’s love for them is conditional before they’re ready, because it goes against every happy movie and story and all the societal shite. But unfortunately, in some situations, it’s just true.

Good luck, and I hope you can find the best way to support them and convince them to support each other.

Original poster

Habber · 09/08/2021 11:34

God yes, I have said this before what is the worst he’s going to do? They can’t seem to put this into words. I’m not scared of him! He can huff and puff and be all disappointed I don’t care but somehow he’s got them hooked into believing it’s not even an option. It’s like they have some fear of his reaction that isn’t even realistic, he wouldn’t stop them seeing their sibling because he needs them a lot more than they need him. It’s all backwards he does fuck all for them yet they feel like they can’t withdraw and are going through the motions of being his children. DD1 is actually doing it I think to protect her little sibling because I honestly think that she tries to protect LO from him when she is there, she hasn’t realised it maybe yet but that’s partly why. I sometimes hear how he treats LO and that both my kids are angry with him about it so I think that’s a massive part of it they don’t want to abandon LO and DC1 over compensates for it

OP posts:

Original poster

Habber · 09/08/2021 11:37

DC2 said last time they went on a day out she said it was upsetting all both parents did was nag and shout at the LO, constantly telling off and saying don’t do this don’t do that and they always refer to LO as awful, bad behaved etc. LO is badly behaved because either spoilt rotten or being told off it’s 2 extremes

OP posts:

billy1966 · 09/08/2021 11:48

@Howshouldibehave

How awful of your ex to pressure your daughter by telling her the price of holiday club. If she brings if up tells the £90 cost again-reply 'I know, I paid for childcare/holiday clubs for the both of you when he refused to contribute'. You are stating a fact, not bad mouthing him.

This.

I’m amazed he has this much sway over them when they only saw him for a few hours a week. He sounds awful.

Are they doing childcare for him today? Does he know you won’t be dropping/collecting the girls any more at his?

This is EXACTLY the moment to say how little he did for them.

Do not protect them from it.

The best thing you can do for your eldest is model a strong woman.

Tell her, YOU will not be coerced by her or your Ex.
End of.

Tell her that you can't force her to value herself, but you home she will.

Tell her firmly that you will NOT tolerate her bringing stress and drama to tge home because of her father.

She needs to know that you are a strong woman with conviction.

She doesn't get to model her manipulative father in YOUR home.

I think this is critical.

If she wants to go and live with him and be his skivvy, THAT is HER choice.

But you won't tolerate drama in your home.

SoNotRainbowRhythms · 09/08/2021 12:01

Oh well fxxk not "badmouthing"him. Give them all the facts about who and what he is and let them find out for themselves if youre right. You haven't failed them, you've done your best and this is on him. Take a step back and let them get on with it. But dont take part in it.

DeRigueurMortis · 09/08/2021 13:28

I think you need to keep batting this back to him.

As in my pp you need to say that's she's discussing this with the wrong parent.

As you say it's pointless to keep talking about this with her.

What you can do (and are doing) is to tell her that she absolutely should not be putting pressure on her younger sister.

I'm sorry you're in this position. He really is a nasty piece of work

DeRigueurMortis · 09/08/2021 13:44

Just to add.

You describe DC1 as a people pleaser but I think that's a misnomer.

She's a father pleaser out of FOG.

She seems to have few qualms about making you or her sister unhappy as long as she's keeping him happy.

That's not acceptable. She cannot treat both of you as collateral damage in the war to win her fathers approval.

Yes, this is not her fault - it's the result of his manipulation but it's not something you should enable.

She does sound like someone who would benefit from therapy but this would only work at the point she's accepted there is a problem here that she needs to work on. From what you've posted I'm not sure she's in that place yet.

tiredofthisshit21 · 09/08/2021 13:52

What an utter twat. I would encourage them to get part time jobs so that they're not available to babysit for him.

My ex has a new baby and has suggested my 18 year old might like to babysit. She has point blank refused.

RandomMess · 09/08/2021 13:55

@tiredofthisshit21 the DDs at are working and have little spare time!

tiredofthisshit21 · 09/08/2021 13:58

Sorry I missed that point - they must be knackered then. I know from my own daughter that when she's not working she likes to chill or do stuff with her friends. It sounds like these girls are not being allowed to have their own lives.

40sNonBlondes · 09/08/2021 14:03

not rtft yet, but my own bio 'd'f did this to me at 14/15 after minimal effort in my own upbringing. I'm now middle-aged and NC for over a decade. Karma will catch up to him.

HollowTalk · 09/08/2021 14:12

I love the prisoners' dilemma analogy. That's so useful.

Catflapkitkat · 09/08/2021 14:28

Have you thought about showing your daughter this thread

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