GP Surgeries are NEGLIGENT if they're not doing face to face appointments

[AmIEmptyOrNumB]

My GP surgery never stopped. They just triaged so 90% by phone and those essential face to face appointments carried on but with masks etc. Why is the government not doing more about this? These Surgeries denying all face to face appointments are failing the hippocratic oath.

Here in Scotland 2m distancing and face masks are still compulsory in NHS buildings. This means our waiting room that normally seats 15-20 seats 5 so we have to phone triage people first and stagger appointments

I'm actually in favour of phone triage in many cases.

Being a GP is not as demanding as Hospital work ! no ward rounds, no outpatient clinics, no on call, very few cardiac arrests, very few difficult relatives,no difficult consultants.i think they forget about their Hospital days !

@jacks11 I explained, it was a genuine mistake on my part - I only read the part applicable to me! I did apologise for the misunderstanding up thread, for those in my situation it's indeed 7-10 days. Sometimes I forget others don't have my conditions.

The only problem we have had is OH received his call during the school run and told the doctor he couldn't speak so was marked as DNA as he didnt want to discuss his worrying symptoms on speaker phone with the teens in the car. He did ask for any time after 9am for this reason but appreciate it isn't as that.

He did follow it up and it was a faff to get another appointment but is now on an urgent referral to the hospital (but that is a whole other story!)

@threecee

Being a GP is not as demanding as Hospital work ! no ward rounds, no outpatient clinics, no on call, very few cardiac arrests, very few difficult relatives,no difficult consultants.i think they forget about their Hospital days !

Honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. You can't be a Doctor.

No outpatient clinics? The whole of GP is one big out patient clinic, except it's one where all of your appointments haven't been neatly filtered out by someone else.

And no difficult relatives? Are you kidding? Do you think difficult relatives stop at the point of discharge?

Sure no on calls or cardiac arrests, but a whole different set of pressures that hospital colleagues don't face. Like personally being liable for everything from the toilet paper to the redundancy payments for your staff if the practice goes under.

I have a lot of time for my hospital colleagues but if you actually speak to doctors that have done both (I used to be an ED middle grade) you won't find many that say GP is easier. It's different - more flexible in some ways (eg easier to be part time) but much more isolating in others.

@FabianK

Does anyone bashing gps understand there is a shortage of GPS in the U.K.?

Ahh yes let’s bash them some more so they go abroad! That will really help!

When a GP is refusing to see a deaf, partially sighted 94yo with stage 4 heart failure and kidney failure whose legs and feet have suddenly swollen to the extent that even their slippers don't fit they deserve a bashing. Still, after he fell and couldn't get up the paramedics were lovely.

We've done what we can to 'save the NHS' during the worst of the pandemic but now GPs are adding to its demise by refusing to see people face to face. The knock on effect will be huge and people will /are dying as a result. It's high time that the regulators sorted this.

I struggle to understand why gps also cannot give specific appointments for phone calls? You will get a call but if you miss it then that’s it, but who can guarantee to answer the phone if you have no idea what time they will call?

@Lifeispassingby

I struggle to understand why gps also cannot give specific appointments for phone calls? You will get a call but if you miss it then that’s it, but who can guarantee to answer the phone if you have no idea what time they will call?

Ours have 2 types. If its fairly urgent or they suspect you will need to see someone (like when ds had a rash) it was 'someone will call you in the next 2 hours. We will send you a link to upload pictures'.

And before the pandemic, they pretty much did the same. Triage you before bringing you in that day. We got an appointment after the call.

If its an actual appointment, it has a time. Though obviously they sometimes run behind.

It's appalling. And my mum has been a victim of their negligence. When the NHS has been stretched, the refusal to see patients has only furthered the impact on A&E and Urgent Care Centres.
My mum complained of swelling to her stomach - 3 telephone appointments and various antibiotics and water tablets prescribed, they still refused to see her despite being in agony and struggling to walk.
After much persuasion, I convinced her to go to hospital - turns out it was stage 2 heart failure. If she had been seen, it would have been likely diagnosed, whether or not she would have still had the best part of 3 weeks in hospital, I don't know. I'm trying to convince her to raise it with the Practice Manager, but she won't as she is fearful they will strike her off as a patient - to be honest, I'd be looking for a new doctors anyway 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

I do think that there are two related problems here.

Firstly, there is a genuine lack of resources and (most) GPs are working very hard, albeit inefficiently.

Also, though, there is an attitude, coming through loud and clear on this thread, that many GPs see their NHS patients as pretty thick and unimportant, probably not contributing much to society.

The idea that someone has to take a call at a random hour if the day, regardless of work or family commitments, evidences the above pretty strongly, and just pushes those who can afford it not to use the NHS.

Increasingly employers and insurance companies are providing access to private GPs as part of contracts.

I do also think that co-payments, maybe depending on means, would really help, Without them the link between the patient being a paying client (hint:they are) and the GP being a provider of a service is broken in the eyes of the GP. They think they are paid by a nebulous ‘NHS’ which miraculously has funds, and the patients are annoying inconveniences.

I’ve been with two surgeries during the past year. Service continued as before. One experience was using their online system, as directed. I completed the form and it was reviewed within two hours. I then got a telephone consultation booked in with a GP for the next morning, sending on photographs to support this on request. I then got a text message with the diagnosis as I missed a return phone call. The prescription was sent electronically to my nearest pharmacy. I could not have asked for more. I did not need to visit the GP.

In my new surgery, I received phone calls to book in the Pfizer vaccine. Whilst on the phone for the second, I booked in a routine check, where I was seen face to face. One routine check, I’d already booked in online.

I’ve never had issues with getting appointments in four surgeries across the U.K. I will say that I work with the system. I will let a receptionist know why I’m calling, when asked, to support the triage process. They then know how to prioritise contact with the health professionals. I will accept referral to a nurse practitioner, if deemed appropriate. They’ll ask the GP at the time, if needed by just popping into his/ her room! I’ll also see any GP available and not wait for my named one.

I don’t know of anyone who has not been able to see a GP face to face in my area during the pandemic. What they have carefully managed is the waiting around in a waiting room. This I’ve always hated, worried what I’ll pick up from others sitting there!

Over the past 5 years, I’ve seen the long hours worked by the GPs in my current area by the timing of ringing me with results - evening calls- or the time these results are reviewed- I can see recent reviews late evening or very early morning on patient access. The surgery GPs work the long hours to clear the decks that I do! I didn’t ring the surgery regarding recent blood tests as I could see the outcomes online. They didn’t need an additional phone call for a receptionist to read the same to me. If I needed a call, a GP would call me.

I'd actually rather a telephone or video cam initially because majority of things do not need to be physically looked at - things I go docs for usually need a blood test, referral, etc so I don't see the issue with vetting by an initial call. I actually think it's a more efficient service this way.

The idea that someone has to take a call at a random hour if the day, regardless of work or family commitments, evidences the above pretty strongly, and just pushes those who can afford it not to use the NHS.

Completely agree with this and is actually what I've done recently, I only use NHs when absolutely necessary as I hate how they do not book a appointment just call Willy nilly at any time if the day as if no one else has a life.

So I use private most of the time now.

then we'll have to pay £99 to speak to a GP. Then people will use the NHS more appropriately or the poor will become more ill. This makes me desperately sad

Last time I read about charges for appts a fiver was mooted. I know it's a few years ago but bloody hell from five quid to £99 is a leap.

I'm totally against charging anyway for many reasons but I'm not particularly poor and I'd have a hard time finding this much on a regularish basis.
If I look back at the last month if this was in place I would need to find 3 fees for me, 2 fees for DP and 1 or 2 for a child. So 6/700 pounds in a month. Add on prescription fees and I'd be broke.

@ohfourfoxache

GPs are the forgotten “victims” within the NHS

They are dealing with never ending shit from hospitals (it’s ok, because primary care will always be there to deal with the fallout), patients who have understandably been reluctant to seek help for “minor” conditions throughout the pandemic which may or may not be serious/life threatening AND they are having referrals rejected left right and centre

I am so fucking fed up of this never ending stream of utter shit against GPs. The vast majority are on their fucking knees they are so overloaded, but because you can’t “see” it it isn’t happening

I absolutely fucking despair 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

Respectfully, the only forgotten victims that I am concerned about are the people becoming seriously ill because some (not all, my own GP is excellent) continue to refuse to open their doors.

I love the telephone triage system, it has worked well for me and my family. But it’s hardly inconceivable that some people will need to see a GP face to face. It’s also not beyond the realms of possibility that some GPs are refusing to see patients for various reasons.

Don’t take this so personally. Many GPs are doing a great job. But there are posters telling you that isn’t the case for them. I would suggest you direct your despair towards the ineffective GP’s causing this issue instead of the people who are raising legitimate concerns about the treatment, or lack of, that they are receiving.

Ffs ‘refusing to see people face to face’
GPs aren’t sitting around having a cuppa you know!
They’re desperately trying to speak to and see the most vulnerable patients. If that means that sometimes really needy patients can’t be seen it’s NOT the fault of the GPs. It’s the fault of the government for not funding the system properly.

The frustration for me is that our surgery are now offering AM or PM phone calls. DS17 needed to speak to doc, it is impossible for him to be available for half a day while at school. Apparently this is now a permanent arrangement. If they could previously give us a definite slot to be seen in person why can't they do that by phone?! Extremely frustrating

@TidyOmlette

I don’t know any GP practice that has refused appointments and I work very closely with a lot in my area. As PP’s have said, people see a telephone consultation as a refusal when it was put in place to keep people safe and reduce the need to people to travel especially on public transport during covid.

People are always complaining about not being able to access GP surgeries but people tend to forget how many patients each surgery actually has. My one for example has 6 GP’s and 2 practice nurses but there are almost 1200 patients registered.

A typical full-time GP has 2000 patients and, on average, each patient sees their Gp or practice nurse 8 times per year. (Yes, I know some of you never go, but other people require weekly appointments). GPs provide over 300 million appointments per year in a normal year and, right now, demand is about 30% up on normal.

GPs provide over 80% of all healthcare for 8% of the NHS budget. The service is chronically under-funded and under-staffed, and GPs are now also getting constant abuse. My team are utterly burnt out and two neighbouring practices are handing back their contracts and closing down. It's just not worth the stress.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow,

But ultimately, for whatever reason, the current system is not fit for purpose. Countries with 1/3 of the GDP do 10x better.

Maybe it is for the best that practices close down and the whole system is reinvented.

@TheReluctantPhoenix - the number of GP’s per capita in the U.K. is one of the lowest in Europe

@CuckooCuckooClock

Ffs ‘refusing to see people face to face’ GPs aren’t sitting around having a cuppa you know! They’re desperately trying to speak to and see the most vulnerable patients. If that means that sometimes really needy patients can’t be seen it’s NOT the fault of the GPs. It’s the fault of the government for not funding the system properly.

It's funny how it's virtually impossible for my severely frail 94 yo dad to see his GP and yet my ILs get a home visit at the drop of a hat. Possibly the difference is my parents are in small town in a largely rural area with only 1 practice and ILs are in a larger town where they could easily change if they weren't happy.

Unfortunately that is not uncommon and if the sole GP practice closes in a rural location, it’s additionally difficult for patients, particularly the elderly to have a f2f appointment

@enoughforme

The idea that someone has to take a call at a random hour if the day, regardless of work or family commitments, evidences the above pretty strongly, and just pushes those who can afford it not to use the NHS.

Completely agree with this and is actually what I've done recently, I only use NHs when absolutely necessary as I hate how they do not book a appointment just call Willy nilly at any time if the day as if no one else has a life.

So I use private most of the time now.

With my NHS GP, I can make an appointment to speak to a doctor at a fixed time. I know how lucky I am, having had a terrible NHS GP with a terrible scheduling system before.

I understand that GPs might be busy, but if they can spend all day calling people, why can't they schedule appointments to do so?

I don't understand why it's so revolutionary to suggest that every GP can keep certain mornings/afternoons clear for face-to-face appointments and schedule phone appointments for all the other times they are working. Most people don't object to an initial call - what they object to is a random call at a random time of the day. GPs can then invite some of the people they've called to book an appointment for one of those slots they've kept clear specifically for that purpose.

It should also be easer for people with pre-existing conditions to book routine follow ups. People with a specific combination of medical conditions are always going to need to see a doctor regularly - why make it so hard for them to book? There should be some kind of shortcut there.

GPs may be hard at work, but so are a lot of their patients. Give them a window in which you're actually going to call, so they can get permission from their employer to take a break then...