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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Nine years for starving a baby to death

999 replies

PropertyFlipper · 06/08/2021 15:07

I’m struggling to see the justice here. This sorry specimen will be out in five years no doubt. Devastating.
Teen mother, 19, bursts into tears as she is jailed for nine years

OP posts:
EspressoDoubleShot · 08/08/2021 01:05

It’s that your only comment that I said crb and not DBS
Lame

EspressoDoubleShot · 08/08/2021 01:08

Mary bell was a convicted child killer,who had her own child on release and didn’t reoffend again. Being a child killer doesn’t automatically mean you’ll reoffend. Some will, some won’t. Depends on the individual

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 08/08/2021 01:10

I find it astounding that people think that just because someone has had a ‘hard life’ gives them a free passport to abuse a child

Yet more, baseless, hyperbolic nonsense.

Point out one single instance in this thread where a poster has said anything along the lines of 'Poor woman, she should be out walking the streets because it's not her fault her baby died'

You won't be able to because nobody has said any such thing, not even close.

People keep parroting absolute nonsense about 'apologists', 'excuses' and so on. You just come across as possessing no apparent ability to follow a discussion or grasp even the most basic of nuance.

This is an emotive subject, but to put it in terms I hope even the simplest of simpletons will understand, just because you are not jumping on board the "String her up/throw away the key/hanging is too good" bandwagon, or you might be participating in a discussion about what might or might not have been a contributory factor here, that does not mean you are 'Excusing' her, pardoning her, not holding her 100% responsible for the death of her child, or implying that she can not be blamed.

Is that clear?

Good, now stop with the complete crap.

EspressoDoubleShot · 08/08/2021 01:15

@XDownwiththissortofthingX excellent post. No one has excused the mum heinous behaviour
But for sure, someone else will rock up repeating lock her up,hang her,flog her and darkly muttering about apologists and excuses

Maddison12 · 08/08/2021 01:32

Those who speak of rehabilitation in prison have no idea what prison is like. The amount of drugs is overwhelming, which of course fuels violence and worse mental health. The prison officers are disinterested, some are severely lacking compassion and empathy. Healthcare and mental health services are atrocious, obviously covid has made this a lot worse, you can be waiting weeks or months for a gp appointment.

1200 men or women housed in one prison, most if not all have mental health problems/ learning difficulties/ addiction issues/ awfully abusive childhoods. The system can't deal with the sheer volume of prisoners and all their complex needs so they're just housed there and forgotten about, until a few weeks before their release date where they'll have one or two visits with a probation officer. But there is no rehabilitation, they keep making cuts and now there's nothing left, the whole system is stretched to breaking point.

EspressoDoubleShot · 08/08/2021 01:37

Prison is violent brutal and dehumanising, yes
The environmental conditions are Dickensian
Having worked in,and visited prison I know this, I also know there are rehab programmes and initiatives. The Govt had encouraged such interventions

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 08/08/2021 01:39

@Maddison12

Yes, as I said, we're crap at rehabilitation.

In part because politicians realise it's not a vote winner, so we end up with elected psychopaths like Priti Patel catering to morons who genuinely would rather see innocent people hung, gassed, or given lethal injections for shoplifting.

EspressoDoubleShot · 08/08/2021 01:42

Current ideological ethos at home office is lock em up. Containment
The prison service is over stretched, delapidated and dystopian
Patel knows there’s limited appetite for prison reform and it’s not a vote winner

PolkadotClouds · 08/08/2021 02:16

@EspressoDoubleShot

It’s that your only comment that I said crb and not DBS Lame
The point of that comment was that you're presenting yourself as someone with extensive knowledge/ expertise in an area where you don't even know the name of the most basic level legal safeguarding check.
Maddison12 · 08/08/2021 03:19

@XDownwiththissortofthingX
Totally agree, I know it's not a popular opinion but can't help thinking the prison system was a lot better under labour and could be again someday.

@EspressoDoubleShot
If by rehab programmes you mean drug programmes I agree with you there. From what I've seen they are very fast acting with methadone on reception to prison, I actually couldn't fault the drug programme but the rest leaves a lot to be desired. There used to be education, basic skills workshops, basic woodwork, reading and writing courses, cooking, personal trainer qualifications, now there's nothing, been cut back to nothing like everything else. Social services has gone the same way. Dread to think what it'll be like in 20 years time but surely it can't carry on like this?

Plumtree391 · 08/08/2021 04:14

@EspressoDoubleShot

Mary bell was a convicted child killer,who had her own child on release and didn’t reoffend again. Being a child killer doesn’t automatically mean you’ll reoffend. Some will, some won’t. Depends on the individual
Mary Bell was only ten.
Plumtree391 · 08/08/2021 04:18

[quote Sweetchocolatecandy]@Lockdownbear what about men who rape, torture and beat children to death? Apparently a lot of them claim to have had a difficult to childhood and mental health problems too- I take it you also empathise with them and you hope they get all of the support they need?[/quote]
Doesn't everybody hope they get help?

Receiving help doesn't mean they don't have to atone for a crime. Some will be behind bars forever but they still need help in all sorts of ways.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 08/08/2021 05:01

You keep insisting this is the motivation for proposing sterilisation as if the rest of us are just far too emotional to objectively consider ways of guaranteeing this young woman can never inflict harm on another child. It's not about calculating risk it's about eliminating it

You can't for a single moment pretend that sterilising this woman would guarantee she can never inflict harm on another child, when the world is teeming with children, and still will be after she is released from prison. Prevent her having any more children of her own, of course, but do you honestly think removing her ability to reproduce somehow protects every other child on the planet, should she wish to harm one?

Beyond the ethical arguments around State enforced sterilisation, you also have practical and legal considerations. Lets say, for a moment, that you convince the government to act to change the law, what happens when this is immediately challenged as a breach of human rights? Do you honestly expect that lawmakers would happily wave this through the courts? Even if it does become law, which doctor is seriously going to participate in the sterilisation of an otherwise healthy woman for no good or worthwhile medical reason? Indeed, which doctor could participate without violating everything that underpins ethical practice?

I am not unilaterally against sterilisation in every single circumstance. It has it's purpose in cases whereby there is a risk of pregnancy in an individual with extremely limited capacity, but that is ethical in the sense that it is very clearly for the good of the individual. In cases of male sex offenders, there are some countries which offer voluntary chemical castration, which, while outcomes are still indeterminate, might actually be a reasonable route to reducing offending, even if it is only by a miniscule amount.

So I could, in theory, see a scenario whereby people who have committed crimes against children are offered voluntary sterilisation as part of the rehabilitative process, but how on earth you go about that without rendering the 'voluntary' part moot and essentially brow-beating people into having it done against their will I do not know. It already happens with 'voluntary' self-admissions under mental health provision, so I would still have grave doubts about sterilisation being practiced even on a 'voluntary' basis. There's no way in a supposed 'civilised' society it should ever be enforced involuntarily by the state on otherwise healthy people.

Slippery slopes are usually a pathetic Strawman, but in the case of eugenics, it really doesn't take much to go from 'sterilise criminals' to 'sterilise potential criminals'. It's not as if there aren't historical precedents, and given the bunch of populist right-wing clowns governing the UK, I really wouldn't put anything past them that they think might pander to a certain demographic.

Kanaloa · 08/08/2021 05:18

Why is her sister on social media saying she knew she ‘wasn’t coping?’ What’s the point of saying that now? If it was my sister who ‘wasn’t coping’ and had left her child multiple times I would have been at the door every single day bar none and would have insisted I put eyes on my niece daily. I wouldn’t have waited until my niece starved to death over a six day period then made a video for social media about my thoughts on the matter.

Kanaloa · 08/08/2021 05:19

Not that I’m blaming the sister for what happened but I wouldn’t be on social media saying these things, I don’t know what she hopes to gain from that.

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 08/08/2021 05:39

There is a massive lack of of care and compassion for a very young mother here. She clearly wasn’t cared for, possibly had been sexually trafficked when younger. Did not seem to have capacity to understand the consequences of her behaviour. Probably on drugs.

If anyone on this thread thinks it is okay to demonise effectively a child for not caring for another child then I have no hope for the future. As women we should fighting against the circumstances that led to this, exploitation, tolerance of drugs, lack of mental health services. As for Brighton Social Services, probably spend more time sucking up to Stonewall than investing in the children that need help. It is absolutely right to be angry about this but when the serious case review is published, if everyone took time to write to people in power and demand that recommendations are actually implemented, we might just actually change something.

ufucoffee · 08/08/2021 06:31

Sweetchocolatecandy
@Lockdownbear what about men who rape, torture and beat children to death? Apparently a lot of them claim to have had a difficult to childhood and mental health problems too- I take it you also empathise with them and you hope they get all of the support they need?
Doesn't everybody hope they get help?

No, I don't hope they get help. I hope someone kills them in prison. Which is what I hope happens to the mother of this baby who was starved to death. Zero sympathy for her.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 08/08/2021 06:55

Do you also hope someone kills the person that kills her? Or does your idiotic 'eye for an eye' idea of justice only extend to people you've heard about in the news?

bluewanda · 08/08/2021 08:09

Going out of your way to make things up - again, she wasn't a sex slave or held captive- is not "speculation". As PP said, she's also been sentenced and convicted of [voluntary] manslaughter.

This. Some posters seem to have access to information that the police investigating the case, the judge and others who knew the killer didn’t. Quite remarkable really!

Handsoffstrikesagain · 08/08/2021 08:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

bluewanda · 08/08/2021 08:12

It's also bizarre to me that out of that post, that was your key point of concern.

Yes - very odd.

Handsoffstrikesagain · 08/08/2021 08:13

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

bluewanda · 08/08/2021 08:28

@Ritasueandbobtoo9 where’s your compassion for poor little Asiah and what she went through? I don’t see it mentioned once in your post.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 08/08/2021 08:33

speculation

noun

  1. the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence

Yes, as the definition states, this sometimes involves 'making things up', as that is part of "speculation".

I still haven't seen a single post in the entire thread where anyone has at any point tried to 'excuse' this woman for her behaviour.

dryasaboner · 08/08/2021 08:34

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

There is a massive lack of of care and compassion for a very young mother here. She clearly wasn’t cared for, possibly had been sexually trafficked when younger. Did not seem to have capacity to understand the consequences of her behaviour. Probably on drugs.

If anyone on this thread thinks it is okay to demonise effectively a child for not caring for another child then I have no hope for the future. As women we should fighting against the circumstances that led to this, exploitation, tolerance of drugs, lack of mental health services. As for Brighton Social Services, probably spend more time sucking up to Stonewall than investing in the children that need help. It is absolutely right to be angry about this but when the serious case review is published, if everyone took time to write to people in power and demand that recommendations are actually implemented, we might just actually change something.

Why would anyone have any compassion for someone who allowed their tiny child to starve to death?