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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Cruelty to children

502 replies

designSalmon · 05/08/2021 21:18

I’ve just read the absolutely tragic story of Kaylee-Jayde Priest. I’ve just been crying my eyes out this evening over the loss of her very short life. She has hair just like my daughter,

I’d really like some recommendations on charities and organisations that try to make a real difference in cases such as these, so that I may make a donation etc.

Rest in peace little girl, I hope you will find the kindness, love and compassion you so deserve in heaven.

Thank you

OP posts:
XDownwiththissortofthingX · 06/08/2021 23:23

Again with the excuses - and yes, that is what they are. Do you not think the people responsible for these appalling crimes should have any level of personal responsibility at all? Or is it all everybody else’s fault?

See what I said about people who don't understand the difference between an 'excuse' and and 'explanation'.

ObviousNameChage · 06/08/2021 23:30

[quote bluewanda]@ObviousNameChage you don’t know anything about Kaylee-Jayde’s mother’s upbringing. The grandmother quoted in the papers sounded like she cared for her grandchild - and even reported her own daughter to social services. Nothing can excuse the ferocious attack that was meted out on that poor defenceless girl, nothing.[/quote]
Did I say it was an excuse or that there is one?

As long as we stick to the "evil" soundtrack real change will never happen and the number of very damaged or worse children will just increase.

ObviousNameChage · 06/08/2021 23:45

Some numbers .

England
• 57,380 children were living with foster families on 31 March 2020.
• This is 72 per cent of the 80,080 children in care looked after away from home.
• There are around 44,500 foster families in England.
• Every year thousands of new foster families are needed in England.

•	There were 389,260 children in need at 31 March 2020, 
•	This was a rate of 323.7 per 10,000 children
•	There were 51,510 children in need on child protection plans
•	This was a rate of 42.8 per 10,000 children
•	There were 642,980 referrals during the year
•	Domestic violence by the parent was identified as a factor at the end of assessment in 169,860 episodes of need and remains the most common factor.

Around one child a week (62 a year) dies in the UK as a result of abuse and neglect. Children under the age of one are the highest number of victims, followed by 16-24.

DdraigGoch · 07/08/2021 00:05

@FightingtheFoo

And by the way, I think Gabriel's step father got the death penalty. I would love to find one person who, if they actually knew the details of Gabriel's case, could tell me it wasn't deserved.
Nah, the death penalty is far too good for the likes of him. It's not like poor Gabriel simply had a lethal injection or electric chair, instead the kid was brutally tortured. No punishment (even if you borrow one from some really backwards dictatorship) could ever right that wrong. As it happens, I believe that the sentence is yet to be carried out.

The mother is incarcerated for life without parole in a Californian women's jail. Given that Californian women's jails now admit men, I think that we can safely say that it's not a comfortable life.

bluewanda · 07/08/2021 05:07

See what I said about people who don't understand the difference between an 'excuse' and and 'explanation'.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX oh I understand it alright.

Definition of excuse (since you clearly need some help with this yourself):

“seek to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offence); try to justify.”

Which is exactly what you’re doing.

bluewanda · 07/08/2021 05:29

Dr Dewi Evans, a consultant paediatrician, said Priest's failure to check on Kaylee was "terrible" and said "The degree of injuries is absolutely astonishing, it's dreadful." and went on "This is the one of the worst cases I've seen."

^ From the Birmingham Mail.

And yet according to some posters on this thread, the monsters who did this aren’t evil (definition: “profoundly immoral and wicked”).

bluewanda · 07/08/2021 07:28

@bluewanda vulnerable in the sense that she doesn’t have strong role models and good relationships herself so has a warped idea of what’s right and wrong. Vulnerable in that she is damaged herself

@sleepyhoglet Sorry, just no. The only vulnerable person in that flat was the tiny newborn baby, beaten to death by those vile adults who were meant to be caring for him.

Naaaaah · 07/08/2021 09:23

@lllllllllll

Someone has to do it , for the justice system to work and try to ensure innocent people don't get railroaded or convicted. Obviously that means someone has to defend awful criminals too , even when they are caught red handed.

True, but it’s still beyond comprehension to me how someone is able to stand up there and defend these monsters. I suppose the money helps.

Perhaps they just don’t give a shit about their clients and put the bare minimum amount of effort into “getting them off” - it’s just lip service in other words. I bet they don’t give a damn when they lose a case like this. That’s the only way I think I could live with myself.

Most absolutely do give a dam. It's an unpalatable job for sure but a critical one nonetheless. Money helps with all jobs.
Naaaaah · 07/08/2021 09:44

@Panickingpavlova

68 injuries to that terrosized baby. Can this lady be sterilised??
How do you see that happening? She's physically held down in a hospital against her will? Just her or other female child murderers? All of them? Does this apply to men too? Before they go to prison, they go to hospital first? Which doctor does it? Are they told who they are operating on and why? What if they refuse? Do they face disciplinary action? Would you like to write the policy on this or are you just talking like a Daily Mail reader?
Naaaaah · 07/08/2021 09:52

@sleepyhoglet

Feel like midwives or social workers need to check the homes that babies are going to. Seems anyone can have a baby and treat it poorly
Do you know how many babies are born every day? You are proposing that a midwife or SW goes and checks every single home of every new parent? How do you see that working? Does the midwife drive them home? Who then covers the midwifes shift? What if the new parent lives miles away? How do you actually see the logistics of this working? Honestly, reading some of the comments on here is like reading the Daily Mail at times.
Disneycharacter · 07/08/2021 10:03

It's unlikely she will ever be allowed to keep another baby. She doesn't need to be sterilised. Unbelievably sad, I can't bear to think of that little girls life.

AbsolutelyPatsy · 07/08/2021 10:20

the problem is it is very easy for some women to have babies.

Packingsoapandwater · 07/08/2021 10:24

[quote XDownwiththissortofthingX]@Packingsoapandwater

I concur to an extent. I spent a lot of time researching early mental health care provision, so sanitoriums, asylums, workhouses, and yes, the tales of the crimes of the inmates and patients are both hair-raising, and just as violent and sickening as anything we read about today. It's nothing new.

Where I disagree is with the entire notion of 'evil'. It's a concept entirely invented by mankind and doesn't exist as any sort of entity that can influence the actions of human beings. In every instance of a horrific crime, there's a sociological, environmental, or pathological factor involved, even in those carried out by the well-to-do middle and upper classes with seemingly nothing to want for.

I particularly dislike threads like these which invariably bring out the rants about 'evil', because all it does is provide a handy cop-out, and it is just a cop-out, that helps us deflect from our failings as a society, and enables us to avoid asking difficult questions. Also, normal, healthy people do not go around killing small children, so it also acts as a panacea for the 'hanging is too good' types.

Unfortunately any attempt to point out that an 18 year old mother who kills her child by neglect perhaps has pretty significant underlying reasons for her lack of responsibility, gets shouted down as 'excusing' or 'exhonorating'. Evidently some people don't understand the basic difference between an 'excuse' and an 'explanation'. Thankfully the law doesn't pander to reactionary vindictiveness, because the only way we are ever going to progress to a point whereby these things no longer happen is by accepting that they happen because we fail, not because of 'evil' or any other nebulous concept.[/quote]
To some extent, I agree.

But we know, for example, that it's very difficult for 95% of people to actually kill someone else, or harm them to the point of death. Even most soldiers in war zones can't do it. Even the Taliban use IEDs to avoid hands-on direct killing.

There's been a large amount of research into this issue; estimates suggest that even soldiers in WW1 would fire above their heads rather than at the enemy. Hitler had to drug his battalions. Stalin piled his with vodka, but even then he had to employ a psychopath for blackwork because ordinary Russian soldiers lost their minds after committing direct murder.

It's one of the reasons why militaries in developed countries have developed in the way they have.

The argument for the other 5% in a military context has been that they are a mix of psychopaths and the very rare individual that can overcome their moral lines to save their colleagues in a life or death scenario - - and these rare individuals are recognised for that feat. We give them medals.

But then, when we come to these type of cases, these findings are simply not applied. We say it's a cycle of abuse, or they are victims themselves, forgetting that pretty much nobody else has the capacity for this kind of behaviour, even when their life is at stake.

One of my relatives works in legal for child services in a London Borough. He says the vast majority of child abuse cases he sees involve serious parental addiction: drug or alcohol. It's mostly alcohol for the violent abuse cases (a parent who drinks a bottle of vodka a day), and drugs for the neglect (heroin addiction etc).

To some extent, that makes some sense - - those are parents not in their right minds. But in these cases, addiction doesn't seem to be a factor.

I mean, what the hell are you if you can beat a three year old to death, when soldiers in 1916 from backgrounds where their dad took a belt to them on a regular basis couldn't even fire at the enemy?

That's the layer that's missing when we look at these cases.

lollipoprainbow · 07/08/2021 10:30

Can this lady be sterilised??*
How do you see that happening? She's physically held down in a hospital against her will? Just her or other female child murderers? All of them?*

Frankly yes !

jakeyboy1 · 07/08/2021 10:35

@Naaaaah

"Do you know how many babies are born every day? You are proposing that a midwife or SW goes and checks every single home of every new parent? How do you see that working? Does the midwife drive them home? Who then covers the midwifes shift? What if the new parent lives miles away? How do you actually see the logistics of this working? Honestly, reading some of the comments on here is like reading the Daily Mail at times."

But that's exactly what does happen in the UK - or supposed to! Midwife checks for first 2 weeks on baby and mum. Then hands over to Health Visitor. First visit from health visitor first thing they do is check where the baby is sleeping. So the checks DO happen. Problem is what happens if something is wrong and how it's handled after they report it.

bbgxd · 07/08/2021 12:05

@lollipoprainbow

Can this lady be sterilised??* How do you see that happening? She's physically held down in a hospital against her will? Just her or other female child murderers? All of them?*

Frankly yes !

Must be sterilised, or she'll be monitored constantly. If she wants to live freely again she has to agree to sterilisation? So she's not forced to be in prisoner but given what she's done can't have full freedom until measures are put in place to stop it happening to another child.

Panickingpavlova · 07/08/2021 12:15

Packing soap and water, really interesting post!

Panickingpavlova · 07/08/2021 12:19

Bbgxd.

Yes something like that seems like a good solution, has castration been offered to prisoners in the states?

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 07/08/2021 12:24

But isn't sterilising even feckless people a form of eugenics? It's a dangerous path to start down.

DottyHarmer · 07/08/2021 13:54

I think some people do seem to be missing an empathy gene, and we all know teenagers can be damned selfish, so if you mix the two and then introduce a baby/child into the equation then trouble can ensue.

I was just reading about the sentencing of the girl who went off partying and left her child to starve to death. The day the baby died she was posting on social media trying to advance her modelling career and selling concert tickets online. Unfathomable. Such a person really must be a psychopath. There are always excuses/explanations, but in this case I’m struggling to see any. The judge must have thought so too as she received 9 years in prison (though probably will be out in three Angry )

Doodlebug71 · 07/08/2021 15:16

They’ve grown up in families that excuse all sorts of madness and they have no insight.

I grew up in a family that continues to excuse all sorts of nasty shit. I have plenty of insight. I know they're wrong 'uns, and I therefore remain absolutely NC with them, and anyone who knowingly supports/enables them. I know that I'm not alone in this situation, but it wouldn't bother me if I were. No way I'm supporting or enabling child abuse.

Panickingpavlova · 07/08/2021 15:27

New model mayhem...

Not if its presented as a choice.
Life long monitoring with each child they have immediate removed at birth or freedom but sterilisation?
Neither way is perfect but surely both ways remove the prospect of them ever being able to endanger a child again?

Panickingpavlova · 07/08/2021 15:35

Dotty there is a chart somewhere showing the lack of I connected synapses on the brain of a child who received little love and care when a baby, its frightening to see that contrast in the brain of the child who did.

The brain is a muscle and different things trigger different responses, children who don't receive love or warmth or something will be damaged sadly.
Also comes into play various sen and undetected issues that cascade undetected down families.

We urgently need to sort this in nursery and primary schools and get those interventions in place as soon as possible.

Unfortunately as it stands teachers do not cover sen on teacher training, and when sen is discovered there is a lack of properly trained sen in school to do anything about it or Ed psych to follow through and get support in place.

So many dc can't read it all traps them.
So many different factors come into play but helping from birth, nursery and primary are our best bets as a society to get in and break these cycles, we need to be throwing money at these early years.

As well as increasing punishments for anyone who harms a child. We need to send out strong messages on that I don't think we do.

Doodlebug71 · 07/08/2021 16:37

As well as increasing punishments for anyone who harms a child. We need to send out strong messages on that I don't think we do.

@Panickingpavlova. You're absolutely correct. "We" don't give out strong enough punishments for anyone who harms a child. First, it has to be proved they harmed a child. The criminal justice system is not strong enough to do that much of the time. The women I've posted about previously were all asked what they were wearing when they reported sexual abuse inflicted on them as children. One was between 8 and 14 at the time of abuse (the abuse continued for that time), and reported it in her early 20s, a few years ago. It turns out that even in 2020, women and girls were still asked what they were wearing when they report sexual abuse or sexual assault.

Whilst I agree that strong punishments may deter people from ever harming a child again, I wonder if rehabilitiation would be a better option. I'm trying to remember which country aims to rehabilitate everyone who goes into prison, on the grounds that those people will become someone's neighbours at some point, so it's better to rehabilitate them than to leave them to fester/get worse.

I'm not entirely sure that people who harm children can be rehabilitated, and am guessing that such things would have to be worked out on a case-by-case basis, but it'd be worth it if child abuse/cruelty to children could be at least reduced.

Nivealove · 07/08/2021 16:38

The brain is a muscle

The brain is not a muscle....

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