To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

[BFrazzled]

In the Olympics.

Poor horses. This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that?

There was one winner of the dressage contest who supposedly also won in the nineties. No mention of the horse, guess it was with a different one then

@Thatsjustwhatithink I think what others are trying to explain is that if a horse was forced to do something reluctantly out of pain only, you wouldn't see what we are seeing in most horses - certainly in the British Olympic horses

Their body language is not showing fear and pain (in fact, any kind of tension is marked down in dressage). Horses don't know how to pretend. Some bridles apply nose pressure that horses don't like, that's what PPs are referring to. If your horse is relaxed in a bit and then shakes it's head and swishes it's tail in a bitless bridle, riders will recognise that's because it is uncomfortable in the bitless bridle. It isn't because the horse is suddenly revering in its newfound ability to defy orders, because instead of tension that would probably manifest itself as the horse bucking for joy and disappearing at a rate of knots towards the nearest grass.

Horses do respond to pressure and release, it's true, but that doesn't even need to be physical contact. Techniques such as Monty Roberts' join up use pressure and release via body language. Although I will say that "natural horsemanship" techniques are open to abuse like any other. Of course there is sadly abuse, and plain bad riding, but a lot of horses and particularly at a high level do genuinely love their work. You might be able to train a horse to reluctantly do various things but really can't coerce a horse to pretend to be relaxed in a Grand Prix dressage test with no indicators of tension, nor pretend to be eager to jump round an enormous course of show jumps or fixed obstacles. Some horses do lose their love for it and not want to do it anymore at that level, and then there is nothing anybody can do to convince them. Generally those horses will take a step back and be used as a schoolmaster maybe for a young rider at home or competing at a very low level which the horse is more comfortable with.

Should say some abuse as in like anything there is someone that will abuse it - but this is not true for the vast vast majority of ridden horses, thankfully

In what way is it unsustainable? Need a lot more explanation of that, it certainly isn’t an undisputed fact.
This is discussed elsewhere on the net - feel free to start another thread if you feel like it :) I am sure that although not everyone thinks so you will find many solid arguments supporting this opinion. I am certain it is redundant to repeat them here. (Are you yourself vegan? I assume not, and neither are most humans for as long as human race exist.)

You are making some weird pretend game with yourself that one needs to be "SO concerned" about animal welfare to be taken aback by the sight of the horse being forced to participate in some weird outdated show. I also find it distasteful when people hit and abuse dogs, and so do most normal people in this country - while enjoying their full English breakfast and non-vegan Sunday roast.

And that bond is why horses are such wonderful animals. Its why they are so gentle with disabled riders, people with MH problems often find being around horses is helpful. Not herds of wild horses running around as they please, but domesticated animals, stabled, ridden in saddles bridles and bits. They are very intuitive animals and when you are riding a horse and you know you have a perfect bond, as I do with my horse, there is nothing better. I wish everyone could experience it.

There are herds of wild ponies around where I live ( I should say semi wild as some have owners but they are left to their own devices). It’s a beautiful sight and I think they are pretty happy with their lot.,. Not being ridden or made to prance around anywhere. I know if I were a horse that’s definitely where I would choose to be.

@Hopeisallineed

There are herds of wild ponies around where I live ( I should say semi wild as some have owners but they are left to their own devices). It’s a beautiful sight and I think they are pretty happy with their lot.,. Not being ridden or made to prance around anywhere. I know if I were a horse that’s definitely where I would choose to be.

I'm not sure you would. Horses really genuinely love to work. They also enjoy routine and being domesticated.

@powershowerforanhour

This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that?

Xenophon is considered to have laid the foundations of dressage in his treatise on horsemanship written in about 355 B.C., although it references earlier works which did not survive. ¹

I doubt Xenophon would call what the current 50 year old Olympic athletes are doing to the sounds of show must go on "dressage" in his sense of the word.

I agree it's lovely to watch wild ponies though. But the day to day routine of looking after a horse or pony can be a really life affirming experience.
I guess that's why us mad horse owners do it!

@Goblincore snd again, you are telling me this? But that’s you putting your opinions on the animal. You have no firm evidence of this, you think given the choice of living wild on the fells most horses would chose to be living in a field and being ridden? I dont think you have any proof of this, it’s all conjecture. It suits your narrative, like people who say indoor cats love being kept inside.

I doubt Xenophon would call what the current 50 year old Olympic athletes are doing to the sounds of show must go on "dressage" in his sense of the word.

It's not that different. My experience isn't in dressage but in classical riding taken from the masters in Vienna. The movements are all
I I the same in the long run as is the skill

But wild horses are exactly that, wild.
Domestic horses have been genetically bred and selected over thousands of years . They are no longer wild and would not survive if turned loose. As shown by what happens when a horse is abandoned by an owner.
The same is true for all dogs, cows, sheep, chickens etc etc…..
They are now genetically predisposed to be good pets, good for riding or working.
There are sadly many people who mistreat these animals. It does not necessarily follow that all domesticated animals are miserable and being exploited.
I’m not sure where you live but the ‘wild horses’ in the new forest are owned by someone. They are looked after and vetted as needed. They are at least semi-domesticated.

@BFrazzled

In what way is it unsustainable? Need a lot more explanation of that, it certainly isn’t an undisputed fact. This is discussed elsewhere on the net - feel free to start another thread if you feel like it :) I am sure that although not everyone thinks so you will find many solid arguments supporting this opinion. I am certain it is redundant to repeat them here. (Are you yourself vegan? I assume not, and neither are most humans for as long as human race exist.)

You are making some weird pretend game with yourself that one needs to be "SO concerned" about animal welfare to be taken aback by the sight of the horse being forced to participate in some weird outdated show. I also find it distasteful when people hit and abuse dogs, and so do most normal people in this country - while enjoying their full English breakfast and non-vegan Sunday roast.

What a cop out!!! Surely you knew when you made that ridiculous claim you’d have to back it up? I’m not even asking for sources; a simple clarification about what, exactly, is unsustainable about eating a diet which is healthy, ethical and environmentally friendly would suffice.

You’re back-pedalling and deflecting hard now, but the reality is YOU decided you were a person in a position to tell horse riders that we’re cruel, you suggested your comments would help us to ‘think critically’ about an issue you must know we know more about than you, you presented your opinion as absolute fact. Don’t you think it’s perfectly valid for people to ask you to examine your own behaviour in return?

Know thyself, OP. Are you willing to think critically about your own behaviour, or are you only interested in examining behaviour you don’t yourself participate in?

I live in Cumbria. They are fell ponies.As I said some have ‘owners’ in that they are occasionally fed but many just are wild and roam the fells around where I live and find there own food. They are not stabled in winter.

They aren’t wild. Just because a horse isn’t stabled doesn’t make it wild

@BFrazzled I like these quotes from Xenophon

"For what the horse does under compulsion, as Simon also observes, is done without understanding; and there is no beauty in it either, any more than if one should whip and spur a dancer. There would be a great deal more ungracefulness than beauty in either a horse or a man that was so treated. No, he should show off all his finest and most brilliant performances willingly and at a mere sign.”

"The rider should give him the rein, so that he may display the noblest feats which a horse can perform of his own free will, to the satisfaction of the spectators."

The music is just a backdrop to what the horse is achieving which is impressive not because it's tricks but because the Grand Prix movements take the athleticism, strength and mental ability built up over years of training (I could probably teach a horse to do a trick like bowing on command or striking out a foreleg to "count" in a couple of days at a push, but I don't think I'll ever have the ability to teach piaffe and passage)

@Goblincore

I agree it's lovely to watch wild ponies though. But the day to day routine of looking after a horse or pony can be a really life affirming experience. I guess that's why us mad horse owners do it!

I actually absolutely understand it.

But this is about benefitting humans, not horses themselves. Not saying that this is purely reprehensible but out treatment of horses is worth looking at with critical eye. There is a world of difference between an amateur riding his pony once a week and training a horse for competitions.

@Polkadotties they are definitely semi wild, they don’t get ridden and they roam the fells doing what they please. They don’t get herded up or stabled or fed or made to do dressage. Being stabled wasn’t the only criteria for being wild. 🙄

@IonaLeg I am not turning this thread into a discussion about the sustainability of vegan diet. It already has 33 pages.

(But you are welcome to start another thread and I will gladly comment there if you really really want to hear what I personally have to say on the issue (but I am not a nutritionist or an economist so it won't be anything you couldn't find by simply googling))

They are not wild though. You said they are wild and they aren’t stabled. All fell ponies are owned by someone. They may be ‘free’ but they are not wild.

They are feral then. They may have owners ( in some cases) but I think that’s just semantics, they lead a feral life. There. Does that explain it more easily for you? I’m not sure what your point is but it doesn’t really alter my initial post.

[quote Hopeisallineed]@Goblincore snd again, you are telling me this? But that’s you putting your opinions on the animal. You have no firm evidence of this, you think given the choice of living wild on the fells most horses would chose to be living in a field and being ridden? I dont think you have any proof of this, it’s all conjecture. It suits your narrative, like people who say indoor cats love being kept inside.[/quote]
It's not my "narrative"

It's the way horses are kept and have been for hundreds and hundreds of years. Do you not believe that horses can enjoy being ridden, jumping with a rider, doing dressage even at a low level? They absolutely do! It's totally obvious when a horse is happy - their great big ears tend to give it away!

The dressage competition looked ridiculous and violent

😂😂😂

Aren't the fell ponies periodically rounded up and go back to their owners like those in the new forest?

Do you know what ponies are culled more than any? Wild ponies. Dartmoor ponies have to be culled because people don't want them as riding ponies. That's a good example of why ponies need to be able do a job.

They don’t get culled. They are endangered snd protected. They are not the same as Dartmoor ponies.

I think the accusations of thick etc arise because it doesn't matter how much we point out that the but isn't the steering mechanism, your arsenal snd legs are (and not by kicking either) somr posters still think they no better and persist with thinking they know it all. What conclusions would you draw? Either are not capable of understanding or they don't want to understand because it would destroy their cruel,elitist narrative.