To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

[BFrazzled]

In the Olympics.

Poor horses. This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that?

There was one winner of the dressage contest who supposedly also won in the nineties. No mention of the horse, guess it was with a different one then

[quote Hopeisallineed]@JulesRimetStillGleaming we rescued a horse that was treated extremely badly at the rescue centre I used to work at. It was still ridden and jumped but also beaten and whipped and half starved. It did what it was told most of the time do your argument that horses don’t ever do what they don’t want to is bollocks. Horses have different characters , like people, some are more defiant in nature than others. Some will put up with a lot of shit.[/quote]
That horse may have enjoyed being ridden and jumped though. Obviously it didn't like being beaten and whipped but I bet it would have willingly been ridden and jumped without the mistreatment too. The horse in the pentathlon was not going to go over those jumps regardless of how that rider treated it which bus what's made it even worse that the horse was whipped. They should have accepted that horse was not going to do that course. As you say, different personalities and likes and dislikes

It doesn’t like being ridden but now lives a happy retired, ride-free life. My point is You can’t make sweeping generalisations about ‘a horse won’t do what it doesn’t want to’ because it’s just not true. Lots of animals do things out of fear or compliance or just for a quiet life.

To add the tack on that pentathlon horse was shocking and not the fault of the rider as it wasn't hers. I wonder if some of these horses are sourced from countries whose welfare and training standards and methods are different to the likes of the UK?! It's been a long time since I've seen a combination of a traditional gag with a flash noseband and tight martingale used in jumping here.

@Hopeisallineed

It doesn’t like being ridden but now lives a happy retired, ride-free life. My point is You can’t make sweeping generalisations about ‘a horse won’t do what it doesn’t want to’ because it’s just not true. Lots of animals do things out of fear or compliance or just for a quiet life.

My point is that I bet if it had never been beaten and always treated with kindness it would have jumped too. The horse didn't necessarily only do it because it was beaten and if it did it wouldn't consistently have done it to the best of its ability, like the Olympic horses do (not talking about pentathlon here)

@Bryonyshcmyony didn’t you flounce our ages ago and say you weren’t coming back? I do keep saying it because these horses are being used and abused for our entertainment and it’s sick. Saying it’s fine tat a horse gets euthanised because it’s being injured is missing the point that it’s been injured because of us, for our entertainment. If it wasn’t made to do these things so we can watch the sport then it wouldn’t be shot. I don’t get why you are all wilfully ignoring that fact. Well I do, because you don’t really care and think it’s worth the entertainment.

@liveforsummer but you can’t possibly know that for a fact.

[quote Hopeisallineed]@liveforsummer but you can’t possibly know that for a fact.[/quote]
That's why I said didn't necessarily- I do know that it wouldn't have done it to the best of its ability though that's fact and unhappy horse will not consistently perform well. Something you learn when you're around horses day in day out for decades. The ones who like their job are the ones that do the best. Majority of racehorses are retired from racing because it's not suited to them not because they aren't potentially fast enough or they are injured. There are plenty of horses that have the potential and ability to be top showjumpers or whatever but their temperament means they aren't.

@LobotomisedIceSkatingFan

Abject nonsense. In the arena of animal cruelty, the frigging fence to die on is surely not how stubborn the horse was in the face of abuse, but that the abuse shouldn't be happening in the first place. Some of these comments are akin to bloody Mary Chipperfield insisting she was 'encouraging (a chimp) with a stick' rather than, er, beating it. All this bollocks about 'reminding horses of their manners' as if there is parity between horse and rider rather than a massive imbalance of power; as if they have the mental acuity to be able to do any such thing, is frankly revolting.

I haven't misread the tone, and I'm not clinging to an argument. I'm making a valid one, and you know it: there's plenty on this thread who have made their points more forcefully and more frequently. The fact is - horses cannot consent to this treatment and you pursue these pastimes because you want to. It's entirely selfish and the only way it can be justified is by vainly attempting to convince the dissenters among us that you and your beasts are all in it together and they love every minute.

This. A thousand times. You want to defend it because you don’t want your enjoyment of that activity to be curtailed. It’s got nothing to do with what the horse wants or what is best for the horse but everything to do with your own selfish wants.

No point arguing with people who don’t understand horses.

LobotomisedIceSkatingFan

Abject nonsense. In the arena of animal cruelty, the frigging fence to die on is surely not how stubborn the horse was in the face of abuse, but that the abuse shouldn't be happening in the first place. Some of these comments are akin to bloody Mary Chipperfield insisting she was 'encouraging (a chimp) with a stick'
rather than, er, beating it. All this bollocks about 'reminding horses of their manners' as if there is parity between horse and rider rather than a massive imbalance of power; as if they have the mental acuity to be able to do any such thing, is frankly revolting.

I haven't misread the tone, and I'm not clinging to an argument. I'm making a valid one, and you know it: there's plenty on this thread who have made their points more forcefully and more frequently. The fact is - horses cannot consent to this treatment and you pursue these pastimes because you want to. It's entirely selfish and the only way it can be justified is by vainly attempting to convince the dissenters among us that you and your beasts are all in it together and they love every minute.

This. A thousand times. You want to defend it because you don’t want your enjoyment of that activity to be curtailed. It’s got nothing to do with what the horse wants or what is best for the horse but everything to do with your own selfish wants.

You can say that about any animal that has a connection with humans, horses, dogs, cats, guinea pigs....... Anything that's been somewhat domesticated.
We, collectively as humans, domesticated these animals, for many their natural habitat is vastly reduced or eliminated now by the progress of humans, any animal that is domesticated has been done so for human benefit from horses in the war efforts to a cat as a companion pet.
For many of them, wild herds or packs have and would cause problems for humans and for the animals themselves. It's not feasible to suddenly try and go back to a time where all animals roam free at will - it wouldn't work to the advantage of the animals and not to humans either.
We have interfered to the point where these animals are in some cases, reliant on humans for their survival.
The way forward is not to just quit and let them get on with it, it's to uphold the responsibility we have, learn how to deal and treat these animals we live alongside properly and in a way that they are having their needs met consistently and with respect.
And that's every single animal, not just an Olympic dressage horse or a scruffy cob tethered at the side of the road.

@TheCrowening

No point arguing with people who don’t understand horses.

Yep this

On the point about Pentathletes only having 20 minutes to bond with a horse, that's because the modern pentathlon was designed to copy the ancient pentathlon by being a test of military skills. Running, shooting, riding, swimming, swordsmanship - all things that were necessary for a soldier to excel at. The point of not using your own horse is that if you were in battle, you might need to jump on a strange horse and persuade it to jump fences and run fast to literally save your life. The fact that the pentathlon woman had her dreams wrecked is good - it shows she wasn't able to form an instant bond with the animal.

Don't get me wrong, I think show jumping is moronic and should be banned. At least in horseracing there is a point to it and there is a huge betting industry that lives off it, but there is no justification for show jumping.

Don't get me wrong, I think show jumping is moronic and should be banned. At least in horseracing there is a point to it and there is a huge betting industry that lives off it, but there is no justification for show jumping

Huh?! No justification because you don't like it?

gosh, this sounds familiar

I think I said something a few pages back about the PETA rabbit hole.

There is a massive split between animal rights and animal welfare. Animal rights says that we should never interfere with animals for our own ends in any way - even keeping a pet dog is wrong (unless it is a rescue). Animal welfare is all about looking after animals properly.

We have some animal rights types on this thread.

@ChainJane

On the point about Pentathletes only having 20 minutes to bond with a horse, that's because the modern pentathlon was designed to copy the ancient pentathlon by being a test of military skills. Running, shooting, riding, swimming, swordsmanship - all things that were necessary for a soldier to excel at. The point of not using your own horse is that if you were in battle, you might need to jump on a strange horse and persuade it to jump fences and run fast to literally save your life. The fact that the pentathlon woman had her dreams wrecked is good - it shows she wasn't able to form an instant bond with the animal.

Don't get me wrong, I think show jumping is moronic and should be banned. At least in horseracing there is a point to it and there is a huge betting industry that lives off it, but there is no justification for show jumping.

I'm afraid I don't understand this pov, what is the point of racing, in your opinion? If it's to see who's horse runs the fastest then it's the same sentiment as who's horse jumps the best? Displaying the prowess of the horses, but through different mediums. And as for the betting industry it supports - many posters are condemning equestrian sports as they see it as humans using animals for their own gain, betting on which horse runs the fastest to win a sum of money is just that really, it's making money for the bookies and sometimes the punters. There's not only horseracing to bet on, there's a myriad of other sports too. It is literally doing what some people are objecting to. So either both are acceptable or neither, because both do the same thing.

It's not the sports, imo that are themselves bad, it's the poor training and treatment of some horses by some people that cause the issue.
The horse world has come a long way since I first entered it, in terms of welfare, it still has a way to go in my opinion, but the answer isn't shutting down all equestrian sports, it's promoting the good and stamping out the bad.

@TheCrowening do only you know horses do you? You have no idea what experience most people on this thread have in the equestrian world. This kind of comment is useless and in no way adds to or furthers the discussion, it’s purile and is purely designed to look like only your view counts because you think you do know horses. That’s BS, so if you have something salient to add then great, do it but ridiculous comments ( or rudeness as in the case of others) isn’t helpful and just makes you lot look like you don’t have a very robust argument.

@Iquitit yes but a fast amount of animals are purely bred to take part in these sports. If the sport didn’t exist, they wouldn’t exist and last time I looked most pets were bred to jump over fences and then be shot if they didn’t make the grade.

*vast!

@Hopeisallineed

Vast amounts are bred for these disciplines? Racing maybe, but not dressage/eventing/show jumping - many that are bred for it and don't make the grade go on to have homes competing at lower levels, or being pleasure horses for amatuer riders, but many are simply bred to be pleasure horses to start with - not many people breed with the express intention of producing a world beater, and even if they do, by the time the horse begins to show it's not going to make it, no one is going to shoot a perfectly good horse that can be sold to recoup some of the expenses or maybe even turn a bit of profit.

And the difference between racers and horses in those other disciplines is that they are trained completely differently, yes very few make top grade horses, but they are not just shot because they don't make the grade - apart from the obvious it would be a complete waste of the money invested in them and they all have the basics of a riding horse trained into them first, before the more specialised training can even begin.

It takes around 5 years from conception (almost a years pregnancy then at least 6 months with the dam) to knowing if a horse will 'make the grade' that's an expensive 5 years, with a lot of time effort and money invested. With the choice to sell on and make at least something back or shoot it at a dead loss, unsurprisingly most breeders/trainers choose to sell on, apart from the moral implications of putting down a perfectly good horse that's not a world beater, it makes no financial sense at all.

Racing, from my understanding, is different in the respect that the horses are trained to gallop from A to B as fast as possible, and without proper and extensive reschoooling, are largely unsuitable for the average rider straight out of training, and that's where the problem occurs.
I've seen first hand the mess that people who don't know what they're doing make of rehoming an ex racehorse, and it turns out far worse for the horse.
Increasingly owners and trainers in racing are taking more responsibility for the horses they produce to make the grade, by having reschoooling and rehoming programs on their yards.

Does more need to be done? Yes it does, because it will improve standards overall, but there really aren't hundreds of horses going to slaughter every day just because they don't win an Olympic medal.

@GetInThereLewis

Animals shouldn't be used for entertainment.

Fuuuuuuck. I'm going to have to ask my dog to stop amusing me.

@ChargingBuck fortunately I’m assuming if he doesn’t do it very well you won’t shoot him.

Racing, from my understanding, is different in the respect that the horses are trained to gallop from A to B as fast as possible, and without proper and extensive reschoooling, are largely unsuitable for the average rider straight out of training, and that's where the problem occurs

Your understanding is wrong. Only flat sprinters are ever required in their races to race from a to b as fast as possible. Most racehorses need to learn how to settle and bowl along and go only when asked. They make great riding horses as at home in training they do surprisingly little fast work. Any decent trainer does a bit of schooling as a balanced and responsive racehorse is important. They are used to going out in company and trotting and cantering steadily as that's much of what they do. They are used to travelling and being in new places and being handled. As with other horses some are quirky and not great for your average rider but many are pretty straightforward, especially once off their high energy feed. Ex racers can and do make excellent eventers as they are tough, good jumpers and used to bowling along at a steady pace. They also make great pc horses for older members as they are fine going to events and being stabled away from home. I've had several and tbh would never have anything else. The most versatile horse around. There now an entire discipline dedicated to the (ROR - retraining of racehorses) which have classed country wide at every level which is refined showing - no galloping and jumping to be seen.

@liveforsummer

Racing, from my understanding, is different in the respect that the horses are trained to gallop from A to B as fast as possible, and without proper and extensive reschoooling, are largely unsuitable for the average rider straight out of training, and that's where the problem occurs

Your understanding is wrong. Only flat sprinters are ever required in their races to race from a to b as fast as possible. Most racehorses need to learn how to settle and bowl along and go only when asked. They make great riding horses as at home in training they do surprisingly little fast work. Any decent trainer does a bit of schooling as a balanced and responsive racehorse is important. They are used to going out in company and trotting and cantering steadily as that's much of what they do. They are used to travelling and being in new places and being handled. As with other horses some are quirky and not great for your average rider but many are pretty straightforward, especially once off their high energy feed. Ex racers can and do make excellent eventers as they are tough, good jumpers and used to bowling along at a steady pace. They also make great pc horses for older members as they are fine going to events and being stabled away from home. I've had several and tbh would never have anything else. The most versatile horse around. There now an entire discipline dedicated to the (ROR - retraining of racehorses) which have classed country wide at every level which is refined showing - no galloping and jumping to be seen.

I said 'by my understanding' because I have limited knowledge of the racing world, personally it didn't interest me and I've known a few people who have rehomed an ex racer straight out of training and it's not gone well, though admittedly they wouldn't have coped with anything other than a riding school horse because that's all the experience they had, imo re-homing like that is irresponsible towards the people and the horse. I've always understood them as needing more specialised training and care than your average riding horse, or than your average pleasure rider is capable of, because of the way they are trained and the job they do on the track.

I'm glad to learn that many can be retrained to do something else successfully, and I hope that the vast majority are - as I said about horses from other disciplines - surely if they are more versatile than I thought they were - it makes more financial sense (if nothing else) to retrain and sell on than putting them down.
So all in all, there's more likelihood of any horse, from any discipline, being sold/rehomed than PTS because they don't make the grade in whatever sphere.

But as I posted before @Iquitit so many are euthanised, and it seems in unethical ways. This report shows the huge numbers that are being sent to abattoirs and being shot at a distance, possibly not even stunned before hand and in front of other horses. So it’s definitely happening on a large scale. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/19/thousands-of-ex-racehorses-being-sent-to-abattoirs-bbc-investigation-claims