To think that equestrian events are ridiculous

[BFrazzled]

In the Olympics.

Poor horses. This ridiculous dancing in dressage, who the hell thought of that?

There was one winner of the dressage contest who supposedly also won in the nineties. No mention of the horse, guess it was with a different one then

Anyway, I'll probably end up getting banned if I say what I really think of some of the posters on this thread, so sad though it will be as its been so entertaining, I'm going to hide the thread now

As explained to you countless times a bit provides pressure. It doesn’t cause pain. If you don’t know the difference between pressure and pain then there’s no way it can be discussed like an adult.
The bit I use applies pressure to the bars of my horses mouth. It does not pinch. It does not cause dental issues. His mouth doesn’t bleed. His bit is relatively thick, again to distribute pressure over a wider area. It has a lozenge which prevents the nut cracker action against the roof of the mouth. It also has loose rings which means it’s not fixed, it hangs in the mouth
I also ride in an anatomical bridle which bypasses the facial nerves. My horse isn’t strapped into the bridle. I use a simple caves on noseband which is done up loosely.

Cavesson noseband*

@Bryonyshcmyony I think if you have to resort to insults and name calling, you’ve already lost so probably best to leave

I think it is generally because horses are cattle. We are much more tolerant to cruelty and physical abuse of cattle than other animals

Didn’t you already confirm upthread that you’re not a vegan?

Meaning you condone and directly fund the exploitation and slaughter of cattle on a daily basis. Which hardly puts you in a position of moral authority when it comes to cruelty to animals, does it?

What makes you qualified to condemn dressage as cruel when you’re happy to accept what happens to cows on beef and dairy farms?

Could it be that this thread isn’t actually about animal cruelty at all, but actually just an opportunity for you to be a filthy hypocrite to entertain yourself by taking pot shots at people who participate in a sport you don’t like?

Or perhaps this is the start of a brave new era for you. Perhaps in your own words you’ll start ‘thinking critically’ and stop paying for animals to be killed for your pleasure, eh?

@gwenneh

It's designed to put pressure on facial/dental nerves to induce a reaction that's possible to the rider but detrimental to the horse.

And it's been explained to you, repeatedly, that this is not what a bit is designed to do nor is it how a properly fitted bit functions.

Your decision not to believe that, and to cite Dr. Cook as a source, makes it pretty clear that you're not looking for evidence, you're looking for a "GOTCHA, ENTIRE EQUESTRIAN WORLD!" that you're not going to find.

Explain it then. What does the price of metal do in the horses mouth? How does it translate the wishes of the rider if not for putting pressure on nerves on the mouth? Explain it clearly and I won't keep asking. But no one has explained but thinks that insults covers it.

One person in the horse world (previous career) said (they genuinely didn't think it was an issue) that yes the bit will hurt the horse if it doesn't follow commands. Once a horse follows the command of the rider it doesn't hurt so much. I valued her honesty. But that it not something I want to be a part of.

A lot of riders also are honest in that bitless riding does not give them the control they want. Yet no horse person on here wants to hear that.

Filthy hypocrite’. Nice. More name calling

@Hopeisallineed

Filthy hypocrite’. Nice. More name calling

Apologies. Let me replace that phrase with ‘person who thinks it’s ok for animals to be killed for her pleasure but still wants to opine on the alleged cruelty of equestrian sports’.

@Polkadotties

As explained to you countless times a bit provides pressure. It doesn’t cause pain. If you don’t know the difference between pressure and pain then there’s no way it can be discussed like an adult. The bit I use applies pressure to the bars of my horses mouth. It does not pinch. It does not cause dental issues. His mouth doesn’t bleed. His bit is relatively thick, again to distribute pressure over a wider area. It has a lozenge which prevents the nut cracker action against the roof of the mouth. It also has loose rings which means it’s not fixed, it hangs in the mouth I also ride in an anatomical bridle which bypasses the facial nerves. My horse isn’t strapped into the bridle. I use a simple caves on noseband which is done up loosely.

@Polkadotties Sorry I think we posted at the same time.

My point is that that pressure translates to pain if the horse essentially goes against the riders wishes. If I want to go left and some caresses my shoulder, I'm still going left. If someone grabs my shoulder using anoufht pressure that it causes pain, I'll stop.

If your horse goes a bit wild, would you increase the pressure? When do you think it crosses the pain threshold and when it's that ok?

I can apply pressure to my own skin, doesn’t mean I’m causing myself pain.

Are you saying that anyone who eats meat is not allowed to suggest there may be cruelty involved in some sports involving animals? (Just checking)

I really do not get why some posters are resulting to insults and name calling. If you've got a sound logical point based on evidence why go down that route?

The only time I would ever apply so much pressure to potentially cause pain would be in a serous situation I.e horse spooks out on a hack and is galloping towards oncoming traffic.
Likewise I would probably push a child out the way of a car if they were about to be hit.

@Polkadotties

I can apply pressure to my own skin, doesn’t mean I’m causing myself pain.

But what if someone else did it to a particularly sensitive part of your body? How would they know your pain threshold?

And the why is important. What right do you have to apply significant pressure to an animals body to get it to go what you want? If you didn't do it what would happen...would the horse just choose to do something different?

If you didn't do it what would happen...would the horse just choose to do something different?

Yes. They would. They often do. You can't correct a horse, or train it, with pain. This is a prey animal whose instincts are to flee from pain and the sources of it, quickly. They don't just stand there and take it.

If I ask a horse to perform a lateral movement seat, leg, rein aid in that order and the horse doesn't, the answer is not "ask harder" or "use more forceful aids". In a contest of sheer muscle I am never going to win, and the fundamental point of dressage is still to get the result from the smallest aids possible. The answer is "try again, and communicate better" -- likely my seatbones weren't level, my shoulder was creeping forward and he didn't have the balance.

@Bryonyshcmyony I definitely got much more than I bargained for

You personally seem to enjoy the thread and I find your way of conducting an argument entertaining. I don't often see people like you in real life.

@Hopeisallineed

Are you saying that anyone who eats meat is not allowed to suggest there may be cruelty involved in some sports involving animals? (Just checking)

No. But that isn’t what’s happening here. OP isn’t pointing to a specific instance of cruelty and saying it’s wrong. She’s describing an entire sport as cruel, on the basis of (by her own admission) absolutely no knowledge or understanding. Moreover, she has made sweeping assertions about how anyone participating in these sports is cruel because in her view it’s wrong to ‘exploit’ animals, despite the fact that she is clearly absolutely willing for animals to be exploited in terrible ways when it benefits her.

It’s pretty obvious, therefore, that animal cruelty isn’t something OP cares about. If it was, she wouldn’t eat animals. So it’s very hypocritical for her to suggest she’s coming from a position of concern for animal welfare when she’s so happy to disregard animal welfare when she’s the person who benefits from cruelty.

This thread exists because OP thinks everyone involved with horses is a rich toff who looks ridiculous while competing, and she doesn’t like that. But instead of owning that, she’s presenting this as a question of animal cruelty because it gives her a patina of moral authority that makes her feel good. It’s totally legitimate to point out that this moral authority is bullshit coming from someone who clearly doesn’t actually care about animal welfare.

@Polkadotties, I don't think a horse applies its own bit and handles its own reins?

No more than an elephant chooses to prance around in a circus.

@sadperson16 what are you referring to?

@Polkadotties

@sadperson16 has made the point much more simply and effectively than I did. If you don't put the the reins, bridle/bit on the horse would not do what you want. No matter how many apples you promised them or talked nicely to it. It would eat your apple then walk off. It's doing it because it doesn't have the choice. It's also doing it because it hurts if they don't do it.

Horses have had an absolute huge impact of human history: from warfare to agriculture to travel. Humans needed control of such an animal. Whilst there has been advances in kit, in essence it's very much the same- nearly all cultures (there are some exceptions) figured out the 'weak points' on a horse and exploited them. Flanks and mouths have always been targeted. Metal scarring on the bones of horses has been found by anthropologists.

The reason it hasn't changed that much is because it works. Bitless riding is harder and more dangerous, because strangely enough a horse doesn't actually want to be controlled the whole time.

But I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'm a bit over the insults by some posters. You never lose debate faster than when you insult someone, but it's also just wearing.

Have a good evening all

@IonaLeg

It is currently unsustainable for humans to stop eating meat and dairy. Just as until 150 years ago it was unsustainable to not ride horses.I do eat meat and in this way I am ready to admit that I exploit the cows and chickens (and I would not argue that cows are willing to be slaughtered or that it is OK because slaughter is humane).

The difference is that nowadays riding a horse is just a hobby, a way to feel your free time. We are discussing how perhaps this is not the best of hobbies. If you wish to compare this to eating meat, it is like paying to have a hamburger made from real calves once artificial meat is freely available.

@Thatsjustwhatithink
For what it's worth I think your explanations were concise, intelligent and wonderfully patient.
Thanks, I enjoyed reading them.

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@Polkadotties

@sadperson16 has made the point much more simply and effectively than I did. If you don't put the the reins, bridle/bit on the horse would not do what you want. No matter how many apples you promised them or talked nicely to it. It would eat your apple then walk off. It's doing it because it doesn't have the choice. It's also doing it because it hurts if they don't do it.

Horses have had an absolute huge impact of human history: from warfare to agriculture to travel. Humans needed control of such an animal. Whilst there has been advances in kit, in essence it's very much the same- nearly all cultures (there are some exceptions) figured out the 'weak points' on a horse and exploited them. Flanks and mouths have always been targeted. Metal scarring on the bones of horses has been found by anthropologists.

The reason it hasn't changed that much is because it works. Bitless riding is harder and more dangerous, because strangely enough a horse doesn't actually want to be controlled the whole time.

But I think we will have to agree to disagree. I'm a bit over the insults by some posters. You never lose debate faster than when you insult someone, but it's also just wearing.

Have a good evening all[/quote]
Google free schooling. I do this regularly

[quote BFrazzled]@IonaLeg

It is currently unsustainable for humans to stop eating meat and dairy. Just as until 150 years ago it was unsustainable to not ride horses.I do eat meat and in this way I am ready to admit that I exploit the cows and chickens (and I would not argue that cows are willing to be slaughtered or that it is OK because slaughter is humane).

The difference is that nowadays riding a horse is just a hobby, a way to feel your free time. We are discussing how perhaps this is not the best of hobbies. If you wish to compare this to eating meat, it is like paying to have a hamburger made from real calves once artificial meat is freely available.[/quote]
In what way is it unsustainable? Need a lot more explanation of that, it certainly isn’t an undisputed fact.

Humans can survive and thrive on a vegetarian diet, so you eat animals for a reason that is purely selfish - they taste good. Eating meat is purely for pleasure. Why does that justify exploitation in your opinion? When you can eat a hugely varied, healthy and environmentally friendly diet that involves no meat at all, why allow animals to suffer so you can continue to do so?

Especially as you are SO concerned about animal welfare! You’re not passing yourself off as the average person who’s not that bothered about animals. You’ve set yourself up as someone who cares deeply about animals. Much more than the people who have had them for years, apparently. So what’s your reasoning? How can you care about animals so much that you’ve started this thread claiming riding is cruel… but you still pay for animals to be killed for your pleasure?

No doubt I’m just being profoundly stupid, but an explanation of this position would really help me see exactly where you’re coming from.

I think what the posters arguing against riding horses are missing is that horses are no longer wild. They are domesticated. They actively like having a job to do. They mostly want to please. They are happy to do dressage or go for a hack. My horse wants to do what I want, not becuase I hurt him but because a lot of horses are dutiful and intelligent and actively want to do what the rider wants, as long as they trust the rider, which doesn't come through pain or fear.