To think that 'middle class' parents get away with murder

[catfunk]

I grew up in a beautiful but modest part of the north with a fair amount of poverty and unemployment. Lots of families were under social services' care (?) police called out a lot, etc.

I now live in a fairly expensive city in the south, a fairly left wing liberal place where people party, lots of mums are 'trendy' types and generational wealth is quite common.

It struck me the other day that if the parents in my home town behaved like the parents in my current home there'd be real repercussions.
Noisy house parties whilst kids are in bed upstairs, parents getting drunk and staying out all night, recreational drug taking and being too hungover to do the school run. But it's ok because they're drinking champagne and expensive gin instead of tenants, and expensive cannabis tinctures instead of smoking resin?

None of the kids seem unhappy or affected and they do have lovely family times together of course but AIBU To think this is not fair ?

@MissM2912

Ok I will remove ‘nice school’ and just say school. If she was at school and her basic needs were met they wouldn’t have intervened’.

You want to 'remove' something you said?

I would like to know why you said it.

I said private school- as part of the whole certain families being less likely to come to attention of authorities.

As someone involved in child protection area I was surprised to see 'private school ' translated to 'nice school' and therefore a 'protective factor'.

As a professional in the area, I think assumptions like that are likely to mean things get missed. Is that how assessments work? I mean really? If there's time to do it as it by the book as it were? Not to talk to the child and ask if probs at school, any friends, happy etc?

Just oh yeah school private. Nice, protective factor.

So essentially the OP is bang on the money. Even if a family who has plenty of money big house etc gets reported. The fact school is paid for is automatic tick. What else?

This is exactly the thing that some on the thread have expressed concern about.

@NiceGerbil

Obvious no sure totally agree.

The OP was about people with money not being looked at in the same way if they get pissed all the time etc.

And I put some reasons I think why. And in general that those with money come to the attention of the authorities less for a variety of reasons.

The things is , as long as the kids were cared for and their needs met , none of the things OP said would warrant authorities getting involved in working class families either.

However I do agree that money makes a difference in the sense that MC people have more options when it comes to meeting the children's primary needs and also an addiction/chaotic lifestyle won't necessarily result in poverty /deterioration of finances.

There's loads of WC families that sound similar to the OP. They're ok parents (I'm an ok parent too so it's not a judgement) . No police being called.No SS involvement, primarily because they have a great support network so there's no abuse/neglect on top of the lifestyle. What MC families pay for, WC families here replace with "the village".

The outcome is the same, kids that are fed, looked after, attending school ,happy, no other concerns etc.

Maybe things have changed from when OP was young. Maybe as a child, OP didn't realise that it wasn't just the drinking,partying or drugs that warranted intervention.

@NiceGerbil

'00:24Generalpost

'I get that . But if mum is taking the child to say soft play . Parks farms etc . Why should mum turn be made to go to a toddler group. And then it put down that mum is not putting child first even though she does all them activities with the child. And even though mum does all them thing it's not mentioned at the conference?'

Agree that's not helpful in any way.

She's doing loads with her child.

But not what is the 'right' thing.

Loads of women really don't like those sorts of things. And that should be fine.

Thats the thing . Just for example ss want mum to keep away from her heavy drug user ex . Thry don't just support /make sure she is doing that . They going onto (everything) of course things could come up so they look at that to. But alot of it is stuff that would not have mattered if the initial concerns had not come up. So to me they should just he dealing with what is an actual risk/danger . Not if mum gos to a play group or not.

A health visitor said that her child looked fed up and bored. Well yes of course he is . They had to sit in waiting for hv and then sit listening to 2 adults talk crap . Of course he was bored.

General post totally agree.

Obvious yes.

When I read the OP and when I've been posting it's around the fact that families in different circs. Whether it's drugs booze violence etc the whole range.

I think that those with money are way less likely to come to the attention of any authorities in the first place for a variety of reasons.

As has been pointed out by a fair number of posters. The worry is children in all sorts of terrible situations at home who desperately need help and are very unlikely to come across anyone's radar (and it registers and action is taken).

NiceGerbil I have told you repeatedly that the school issue in your friends case is IRRELEVANT. I said nice as private schools are GENERALLY nice. It was just an extra word that has no impact on the outcome on any action taken in your friends situation.
If the child is attending school- any flipping school, that is a protective factor and would be seen as a positive.
Social workers- as I have also said, do not investigate schools. They are regularly inspected themselves by Ofsted and have their own safeguarding team. Unless specifically made aware of some issue with the standards in the school social worker wouldn’t have had concerns.

'. But alot of it is stuff that would not have mattered if the initial concerns had not come up. So to me they should just he dealing with what is an actual risk/danger . Not if mum gos to a play group or not.'

Agree.

@MissM2912

NiceGerbil I have told you repeatedly that the school issue in your friends case is IRRELEVANT. I said nice as private schools are GENERALLY nice. It was just an extra word that has no impact on the outcome on any action taken in your friends situation. If the child is attending school- any flipping school, that is a protective factor and would be seen as a positive. Social workers- as I have also said, do not investigate schools. They are regularly inspected themselves by Ofsted and have their own safeguarding team. Unless specifically made aware of some issue with the standards in the school social worker wouldn’t have had concerns.

You can tell me this and that but your posts are available for anyone to read.

I said private school
You said nice school. Protective factor.

That's a massive assumption.

The attending bit came when I said that's bias.

You also said. In that case it would be keep an eye or care.

That's a big thing for a poster stating a job in child protection to say on an open forum on a topic like this.

Generalpost- the fact they have taken a report from Health Visitor and then requested play group would indicate they had concerns about the child’s development.
This is the thing- by the time social work get to the point of a child’s plan/ CPR things need to be pretty bad. Your friend may well not be telling you everything.
Also why was the child bored? Where were their toys? What did the mum do to entertain while waiting for Health Visitor? She could have been reading to them, doing craft activities, playing with them.
People often only tell you the bits that sound good- not the whole story.

Massive generalisation

NiceGerbil I honestly have NO idea what you are talking about. I don’t think you understand what I mean by protective factor. The school isn’t more protective because it is private??
You seem fixated on a comment about a nice school. It is just a term. You are reading way to much in to it.

@NiceGerbil

Obvious yes.

When I read the OP and when I've been posting it's around the fact that families in different circs. Whether it's drugs booze violence etc the whole range.

I think that those with money are way less likely to come to the attention of any authorities in the first place for a variety of reasons.

As has been pointed out by a fair number of posters. The worry is children in all sorts of terrible situations at home who desperately need help and are very unlikely to come across anyone's radar (and it registers and action is taken).

I completely agree with your last paragraph. Sadly, that is the case way too often regardless of the parents' income and that is a discussion definitely worth having.

I would hope that in the event of SS involvement in s family with massive alcohol abuse and violence etc.

That talking to the children (assuming old enough) would be a given.

I don't know why you're talking about investigating schools.

I said my friend slept rough from time to time when it got bad. What I wrote about her is what sparked this dialogue.

Surely in a situation like that they would talk to the children? Rather than just thinking. Nice school, kid fed. Keep an eye. Only other option is care.

I reference investigating schools as you said how would I know it was nice??

And of course the child would be spoken to? When did I say they wouldn’t be!
If you read my earlier posts you will see that I said that any concern raised to social services would be FULLY investigated.
My point is- on what you have said- while it was a totally tragic situation- I personally think it unlikely your friend would have been removed from the family home and placed in the care system.
I apologise for using the word nice in relation to the school- I was generalising as let’s face it- private schools are often nice and that is a good thing, but as I also said, attending ANY school is a good sign as very often children who enter the care system as teens are non attenders. Perhaps I should have explained my logic more fully.

Obvious there are s host of issues around just. Everything.

My view is that.

'Society' likes to think children are very important. Neglect abuse CSA etc are heinous crimes.

In practice though.

In the last week or so there's been-
Abuse in the scouts for years covered up ignored
Bradford grooming sexual exploitation still happening
Children's homes in a certain area (doubt the only area) turning a blind eye and in some cases facilitating massive abuse of children in their care. One employed s man they knew was s child sex offender. Dodgy men allowed into the premises. Appalling.

And all those news reports will be forgotten by most people really fast. Oh no terrible. Shocking.

No action.

It all links together. And it's grotesque.

MissM I think let's leave it there.

Anyone who wants can read the posts and reach their own conclusions.

And also- let’s not forget that there are other professionals, IE teachers, who see kids day in day out. They have a duty of care to report too and often know a lot more than social services about what’s going on.

There own conclusion on what?? That social workers don’t give a shit about middle class children? Wise up.
Reality is the system is broken and kids often come out of care worse than they go in.
I find the attitude you have shown me and my peers who work day in day out to help some truly vulnerable people quite repulsive. I have had a horrendous day dealing with something very upsetting and don’t need to be made to feel bad about something that happened to your friend in the past which I had nothing to do with.

@MissM2912

Generalpost- the fact they have taken a report from Health Visitor and then requested play group would indicate they had concerns about the child’s development. This is the thing- by the time social work get to the point of a child’s plan/ CPR things need to be pretty bad. Your friend may well not be telling you everything. Also why was the child bored? Where were their toys? What did the mum do to entertain while waiting for Health Visitor? She could have been reading to them, doing craft activities, playing with them. People often only tell you the bits that sound good- not the whole story.

Well I have not put why the child is on the protection register. Basically the person is housed In one room at the moment. So she tries to spend as much time out as possible but on this day she had to wait in for the HV so after a while of waiting child becomes bored. HV is then there for about an hour . So child is board of 2 adults talking for an hour which would be pretty normal for a small child to become bored I thar situation. I (know) that this person is being 100% honest with me.

@NiceGerbil

Obvious there are s host of issues around just. Everything.

My view is that.

'Society' likes to think children are very important. Neglect abuse CSA etc are heinous crimes.

In practice though.

In the last week or so there's been-
Abuse in the scouts for years covered up ignored
Bradford grooming sexual exploitation still happening
Children's homes in a certain area (doubt the only area) turning a blind eye and in some cases facilitating massive abuse of children in their care. One employed s man they knew was s child sex offender. Dodgy men allowed into the premises. Appalling.

And all those news reports will be forgotten by most people really fast. Oh no terrible. Shocking.

No action.

It all links together. And it's grotesque.

Society likes to PRETEND that it cares about children , and even that is in a very prescriptive way. You don't even have to go looking for horrifying abuse cases. It's enough to see the reaction when it comes to benefits, certain disabilities, free school meals etc.

I might be naive but I honestly believe that the majority people working with children do actually care about them. However, they are constrained by the rules around the job, the law, the system they work with and the limits imposed on them through lack of funding, over-stretching, lack of resources etc. The irony of it all is that it would cost so much less to intervene early and help children than try to fix broken adults and the consequences of ACEs, abuse,neglect,trauma etc.

I do what I can through my job, volunteering and the charities I support. Short of taking certain children home with me , there's fuck all I (or anyone on an individual level) can actually do to fix it.

MissM

How about I'll wise up when you stop posting what is at best misleading and at worst plain wrong.

On a sensitive topic which will very possibly be read by women who need help.

@MissM2912

There own conclusion on what?? That social workers don’t give a shit about middle class children? Wise up. Reality is the system is broken and kids often come out of care worse than they go in. I find the attitude you have shown me and my peers who work day in day out to help some truly vulnerable people quite repulsive. I have had a horrendous day dealing with something very upsetting and don’t need to be made to feel bad about something that happened to your friend in the past which I had nothing to do with.

If children are coming out if care worse than they went in. How comes they go in care I'm the first place . It seems they are being put in a worse situation than at home . That's a question for the system rather than you .

It's actually been good chatting with you and others especially since there was only a few posting so was easy to follow and get different opinions. Sadly none of us can fix it but I do hope one day things can be better.

Generalpost Sounds like a very sad situation and hope your friend gets any help she needs.

@MissM2912

There own conclusion on what?? That social workers don’t give a shit about middle class children? Wise up. Reality is the system is broken and kids often come out of care worse than they go in. I find the attitude you have shown me and my peers who work day in day out to help some truly vulnerable people quite repulsive. I have had a horrendous day dealing with something very upsetting and don’t need to be made to feel bad about something that happened to your friend in the past which I had nothing to do with.

I'm sorry you've had a crap day. I can barely cope emotionally working in a school, so I have no idea how SW's do it. I know I wouldn't be strong enough.

They go in to care when things have got so bad social workers are concerned they could come to real harm, or alternatively their parents have asked for them to be removed for a variety of different reasons. Often if their is youth offending and parent can’t cope.