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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that 'middle class' parents get away with murder

901 replies

catfunk · 01/08/2021 12:59

I grew up in a beautiful but modest part of the north with a fair amount of poverty and unemployment. Lots of families were under social services' care (?) police called out a lot, etc.

I now live in a fairly expensive city in the south, a fairly left wing liberal place where people party, lots of mums are 'trendy' types and generational wealth is quite common.

It struck me the other day that if the parents in my home town behaved like the parents in my current home there'd be real repercussions.
Noisy house parties whilst kids are in bed upstairs, parents getting drunk and staying out all night, recreational drug taking and being too hungover to do the school run. But it's ok because they're drinking champagne and expensive gin instead of tenants, and expensive cannabis tinctures instead of smoking resin?

None of the kids seem unhappy or affected and they do have lovely family times together of course but AIBU To think this is not fair ?

OP posts:
Comedycook · 01/08/2021 15:21

[quote CanICelebrate]@Comedycook I absolutely acknowledge it’s privileged financially but on the other hand I don’t have any family support which I also see as a privilege.[/quote]
Family support is a huge privilege.. definitely. Do what you have to do... parenting is tough. I have neither much money nor much family help. Just a small amount of each...!

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 01/08/2021 15:22

@CanICelebrate
There is nothing wrong with buying in a bit of extra help when needed. The point as others are saying is that MC parents are able to disguise not coping or persistent poor behaviour. Also behaviour is not judged in the same way. I work in the City and I have no illusions about the levels of drinking and drug use whether it’s a trader who does a couple of lines or a manager with a love of claret. I have seen people incapacitated at work with no consequences after a boozy lunch. It’s shrugged off. I just don’t think it would be the same for someone on a minimum wage job.

FreshFancyFrogglette · 01/08/2021 15:23

Totally agree. I think you are 100% right. Trouble is, what can be done about it? Like a previous commenter, there was some horrendous abuse in my childhood. Which wasn't really acknowledged properly because when it was questioned my parent moved my school. The issues were never with them, despite them drinking to excess, being in and out of my life, and suffering debilitating mental health problems, which they refused to seek help for. I have seen much better parents hung out to dry, for much less, because they were visable via financial circumstances.

Walkaround · 01/08/2021 15:25

@catfunk - another question for you. Do you think it is the same people who are judgemental of this type if behaviour in the less well off, and approving of it in the wealthy? Or do you think that, of those who disapprove, they would also look askance at the middle classes behaving in the way you describe, if it affected them in the same way? If you are poor and live cheek by jowl with others, your behaviour can be f*cking irritating or dangerous to others who do not want to join in, but who are forced to suffer your behaviour. If it’s behind closed doors in a detached mansion with other people just like you, and everyone else can choose not to join in, or pretend it isn’t happening, will you view it in precisely the same way?

herecomesthsun · 01/08/2021 15:26

I read John Rae's autobiography recently (he was Headmaster or Head Master of Westminster School).

Very common for upper middle class parents in the 70s to have broken marriages / kids to be at parties where drugs were circulating etc and for the school to be picking up the pieces.

I guess though, if the kids were at a school like that, there was someone in loco parentis sorting it out, up to a point.

I think money can be a bit of a buffer, as with many things in life. But no substitute for a stable home life.

Gwenhwyfar · 01/08/2021 15:27

I'm sure you're right that there's unfairness, but not necessarily about parties. I lived in a very low income 'rough' area and social services weren't called just because the parents were drinking. Everyone smoked weed there as well so even if it was technically a social services matter, it clearly wasn't the case that every weed smoker had their child taken away from them.
If and when the police were called out, it was obviously by someone else living in the same area.

EveningOverRooftops · 01/08/2021 15:28

@mbosnz

I think you're absolutely right. It's one of the reasons why the abuse in my childhood was never, ever acknowledged, let alone addressed. Even when I literally cried out for fucking help.
From a poorer background but a straight A student.

No one would believe I was being abused because my grades weren’t affected.

No one thought or even considered that by avoiding home the only place to go was the library so of course I read well and did my homework.

WombatChocolate · 01/08/2021 15:28

I agree that the SS level for interest or intervention differs to what people (often on MN) disapprove of.

Loads of people struggle with life and with parenting but what they do is ‘good enough’ and SS will have lists of indicators of what triggers interest or intervention and it does differ for different age groups. Little babies and children need adults on hand all the time, whilst an older child can make a sandwich if the adult isn’t there or incapacitated.

People on MN often baulk at things that are extremely normal. Eating entirely processed food, not having hot meals every day, irregular routines and bedtimes or washing of people and clothes schedules....flexible attitudes to children playing out and little or no interest in school or school work - it’s all entirely normal and accepted in the UK.

And all parents do better and worse some days, whatever that means. Is it better to have your children in nice middle class clothes brands and have been to their flute lesson that day, whilst having had a big row with drunken father that they heard whilst in bed, than having sent them to school in the same dirty uniform all week and eaten chips from the chippy 4 days in a row?

Growing up in homes where uncertainty and fear are frequent features is a terrible thing. That uncertainty and fear can be paralysing and terrifying for children who often can’t voice it and only see how awful it really was years later ...because children only know what they know. Parents who exhibit erratic behaviour, mood swings, significant depression, mental health issues, addiction of any form, relationship strife - it’s all harmful to children regardless of whether they live in a big house or a small flat and regardless of the food they eat and clothes they wear.

traumatisednoodle · 01/08/2021 15:31

*@catfunk- another question for you. Do you think it is the same people who are judgemental of this type if behaviour in the less well off, and approving of it in the wealthy? Or do you think that, of those who disapprove, they would also look askance at the middle classes behaving in the way you describe, if it affected them in the same way? If you are poor and live cheek by jowl with others, your behaviour can be fcking irritating or dangerous to others who do not want to join in, but who are forced to suffer your behaviour. If it’s behind closed doors in a detached mansion with other people just like you, and everyone else can choose not to join in, or pretend it isn’t happening, will you view it in precisely the same way?

The author of this book suggests exactly that
www.amazon.co.uk/Skint-Estate-Notes-Poverty-Line/dp/152910338X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?hvlocphy=9045120&hvnetw=g&keywords=skint+estate&hvadid=259131349918&qid=1627828128&dchild=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwjJmIBhA4EiwAQdCbxkhsPzNZeWOGSjdn94Bj7XXWcuk3mWT6NtGcla2ytFZ5Lkj-v2tx5xoCuQMQAvD_BwE&hydadcr=4174_1773497&hvdev=m&hvqmt=e&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&hvtargid=kwd-592268444044&adgrpid=56172776834&hvrand=9454033975820651605&sr=8-1

ladygindiva · 01/08/2021 15:35

@NickyOy

And why Madeleine McCanns parents got away with leaving their kids in an apartment when they were out having a meal. If that was a working class family they would have had social services come down on them like a tonne of bricks
This has always grated me, I agree.
judgejudyrocks · 01/08/2021 15:37

You should not both drink to excess while your Dc are at home with you (what if you needed to drive them to hospital?)

Ha ha! Does anyone really go tee total for 18 years when they have kids? No glass bottle of wine on a Saturday night? No date nights? Presumably no champers at Christmas or on Birthdays? Just in case a child suddenly keels over and needs driving to hospital?? How dull.

paddlingon · 01/08/2021 15:37

Social services will genuinely only get involved if the child is at real enduring risk of harm. Even in poor areas anti social behaviour alone will not warrant it. There are loads of drug users/ drinkers/ people with chaotic lifestyles/ people with significant hygiene issues who do not have kids on CPR.

It isn't being a drug user that will get your dc taken into care, there are huge numbers of drug using parents.

It is being unable to provide food, heat and clothing because you have spent all the family money on drugs and sold everything you aren't wearing.

It isn't leaving your dc for an hour while you go out to score it is leaving them repeatedly all night as you go out to steal or work as a prostitute to gain the money for drugs that you need.

Social care thresholds are very high, for a case to go to court for neglect much higher than has been mentioned by most posters.

Social care will consider that needs are being met if they are outsourced and provided by others. Involving dc in the child protection system isn't done easily.

BiBabbles · 01/08/2021 15:38

Yes, the things the OP lists has nothing to do with middle class (or any other class), OP hasn't said this is something all middle class people do or that all middle class people are like this or are shite/"bohemian" parents, but those that are tend to be looked on more favourably than those that are viewed as working class or poor.

If we want to look at actual murder of children, there is a marked difference in the reporting and response to it by a range of demographic factors, perceived wealth being one of them. Looking through various news reports and the comments to them gives a trove of evidence.

Social services don’t turn a blind eye because the families have money. They have a statutory duty to investigate any complaints made! if they aren’t made aware of issues they can’t investigate them.

What is legally meant to happen and what social services have capacity to do are often not the same thing, and really, social workers are humans and therefore have their own biases and saying SS doesn't do this or that is to ignore them. We can't fix what we don't admit is an issue.

I experienced it time and again. Part of that was likely an overstretched system, but part of it was bias. I had a counselor once discuss in my earshot how hard she'd worked to get therapists into school because she had found kids failed because of how the area we were in was viewed, kids like me who spoke out were labeled 'dramatic' and not taking enough responsibility, and I know schools now, in the UK, doing the same thing with the same reasons - everything is overstretched, but also many are finding it harder in some areas to get anything noticed because there is a view that parents there aren't a problem to be bothered about and the kids are blamed and suffer as a result.

Interesting points on here, I suppose it is also how much these behaviour impact on life chances really.. In a small flat with drunk parents, no where to escape too.. No culture, education, no thought about how to parent compared with educated people who do consciously parent, educate support education and maybe drink but the child has space to retreat too and it doesn't impact them?

While inadequate housing can cause issues, I've seen no research into Adverse Childhood Experiences like parental substance abuse that suggests having a bigger house/bedroom has any sort of relieving effect. I guess it might be possible, but I've not seen data on it.

And really, that's a very false dichotomy. There are plenty of people in big houses who do not give a fuck about their parenting (I've had several including my own father admit it to me - cared more about his friends and coworkers which is why he has more drug arrests than I've ever had drinks) and plenty in small flats do.

Andante57 · 01/08/2021 15:39

@Happycow37

I’m studying to be a social worker and it’s a well known fact (in those circles at least) that middle/upper class families aren’t even on the radar of social services and often times are more neglectful of their children than poor families. The difference is literally money.
If it/s known by social services middle/upper class families are often more neglectful of their children than poor families, then why isn’t this being addressed?
Andante57 · 01/08/2021 15:42

Sorry, I hadn’t read full thread and didn’t realised this post had been addressed.
Ignore my last post.

Monday26July · 01/08/2021 15:43

@MissM2912

Killahangilion That is absolute nonsense! You can’t whisper in social workers ears so they back off! Honestly. Also social workers can’t remove children- Judges in a private family court do.
There is zero chance @Killahangilion is a social worker or in any way involved with one. They’re speaking absolute nonsense and have showed that quite clearly.
Orangecinnamon21 · 01/08/2021 15:44

It's true @catfunk absolutely agree. I know a former attendance officer traumatised by some of the things she has seen kids dealing with behind closed doors of wealthy Sussex downs houses...so it doesn't all go under the radar.

ladygindiva · 01/08/2021 15:45

@judgejudyrocks

You should not both drink to excess while your Dc are at home with you (what if you needed to drive them to hospital?)

Ha ha! Does anyone really go tee total for 18 years when they have kids? No glass bottle of wine on a Saturday night? No date nights? Presumably no champers at Christmas or on Birthdays? Just in case a child suddenly keels over and needs driving to hospital?? How dull.

Quite. And having got rid of the dc for the night is no guarantee... I recall dd1 aged about 12 ( only child at that point) being brought home from a sleepover as they had been putting make up on and she had a severe allergic reaction. I'd had a few glasses of wine but I sobered up pretty fast and managed to take the appropriate action.
3scape · 01/08/2021 15:47

Of course kids raised by such self obsessed people seem happy, they're self reliant. It's about necessity.

Kylereese · 01/08/2021 15:48

Absolutely - I read Kerry Katona’s bokks and it is only because she was rich enough to afford a nanny to take care of her children’s needs why she went on drug/alcohol binges and slept for days. Technically she was neglectful.

Then there’s the classic case of the McCann’s that I won’t re-hash but let’s just say if a Mum in a council flat went to next door flat for dinner and a drink and her child was taken it would have been treated differently.

paddlingon · 01/08/2021 15:50

Social workers can't investigate what isn't reported.
When I was working as a front line child protection SW we had very limited reporting of cases involving higher socio economic group for issues like neglect although it did happen.

Usually the main difference was that this group turn up to everything with a lawyer and have the resources to set up any changes requested of them.

Working for a post sexual abuse charity we have a much more even socio economic number of referrals. But sexual abuse was a more common referral to social services as well in higher social economic groups.

Lurcherloves · 01/08/2021 15:51

I live in a middle class place and recognise the behaviour but not in my group. I rarely drink (having had an alcoholic and addict father) and don’t take drugs and hate loud adult parties when children are around. I’ve been at weddings where parents are taking Coke with their kids there. Hideous behaviour. I absolutely hate it in anyone and in my opinion make the person scum whatever the so called class

Notmoresugar · 01/08/2021 15:57

Yawn, another north versus south thread.

Reality check - there's neglect EVERYWHERE.

Come back when you've got concrete like for like statistics.

Whatinthelord · 01/08/2021 15:58

@paddlingon

Social workers can't investigate what isn't reported. When I was working as a front line child protection SW we had very limited reporting of cases involving higher socio economic group for issues like neglect although it did happen.

Usually the main difference was that this group turn up to everything with a lawyer and have the resources to set up any changes requested of them.

Working for a post sexual abuse charity we have a much more even socio economic number of referrals. But sexual abuse was a more common referral to social services as well in higher social economic groups.

Interestingly I experienced the same as a social worker. Most situations where I worked with upper middle class families were in relation to sex abuse or because the fathers had been found to have child sexual abuse images on their computers.
LonelyBut · 01/08/2021 15:58

Yep …. Pretty sure there’s an unofficial ss tick box sheet whether to progress cases
You could have 2 identical situations/concerns yet if one family is in council housing and on benefits and the other has a mortgage in a nice postcode area they will be left well alone

Speaking from bitter personal experience