To feel mean thinking it's reasonable for the pension triple lock to be broken?

[BendyTrendy]

Tricky one because our state pensions are lower than the rest of the EU, but also the largest area of welfare spending (at about 42% of the welfare budget).

Still, on balance, I think it's reasonable to break the triple lock under the circumstances of both Brexit and Covid recovery.

Can the country justify an 8% rise to the state pension under the circumstances? Is the triple lock on pensions sustainable? I feel mean even asking the questions, but tough choices must be made.

Boris Johnson signals 'triple lock' on pensions could be broken amid estimates of 8% rise

State pension predicted to rise by 8%

Rishi Sunak hints at suspension to pension triple lock

Tough one.

Then Brexit happened as they wanted, but so did a plague targeting the elderly. Karma spoke…

Fuck off with your fucking ageist shit.

You know that COVID also “targeted” black and south Asian British people. Who may or may not have voted to leave the EU.

Would you argue that it was karma for black British people? Oh no, because that would be racist - but it’s ok to be ageist.

You wait, you just wait until you’re one of “them” - old and unable to work any longer.

@Lincslady53

Don't forget, that even if you are in your 30s now, one day you will be receiving the state pension. A lower increase now will also affect how much you get when, all of a sudden, you are eligible for your state pension, and perhaps, although fit, have one or two age related ailments that prevent you taking on any work to supplement the pension. Be careful what you wish for.

this ^

People realise that pensioners are a homogenous entity, right?

Aren't*

Then Brexit happened as they wanted, but so did a plague targeting the elderly. Karma spoke…

That's psychopathic.

There's no justification at all why NIC is only borne by "workers" and not by others with higher incomes from non-working sources.

This

@MadinMarch

This is an unpopular view, but it is factual that the elderly are also in the group most likely to die. They’ve had their time. Covid just speeded up the inevitable process. Maybe nature had a way of telling us that we can’t continue living unnaturally long lives anymore. It’s unsustainable for the planet, it’s resources and the welfare budget

Yes, it's an unpopular view, because it's a disgusting view. Truly vile.

also premature babiesand babies born with disabilities maybe we should let them die too? a baby is no use, massively consumes planetary resource before it is any use and there is no guarantee that they will turn out useful and not a junkie thieving wastrel. there is already an over population problem. Let em die I say!

No I am not serious

@saywhatn

The only alternatives I've seen is to remove child benefit for all & stop giving benefits to the feckless who keep having children. It's like Daily Mail bingo!

Quite.

There seems to be a narrative by a couple of posters on here that all pensioners should see an increase as some of them are vulnerable and can not go out to earn more income, so pay all of them to ensure no one goes without.

Whereas working age people are less deserving because they can all go out to work and earn more apparently. So we don’t need to also protect any of the vulnerable in that group? Never mind the fact that there are a proportion of working age adults who are genuinely not able to work, either PT or full time.

Personally I have a child with a disability and there is NO childcare for him outside of school hours. There are thousands of families in the same situation as me where a parent can’t work either full time or at all. Yet we will lose the £20 a week UC uplift very soon. Never mind that regardless of covid we were already trapped on benefits for many, many years that will impact our entire futures and have very few options in increasing our incomes. Bearing in mind many of our children will also continue to need care once they are adults.

Whereas my dad/parents with hundreds of thousands in personal pension and a house worth £600k that is mortgage free will see this 8% lift to his state pension. He’s also in this position because he always had childcare that allowed him to work full time.

I know this is anecdotal but there will be thousands of people in the same situation. It doesn’t need to be an either or for each of these state benefits but some posters defending the pension increase are using ‘lazy working age people on benefits that need to just work harder’ as a justification as to why retired people deserve the uplift more.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Then Brexit happened as they wanted, but so did a plague targeting the elderly. Karma spoke…

That's psychopathic.

I regret that ok. Emotions running high with all of this and bringing out the worst. I’m sorry.

I didn’t mean to be mean. I’m just angry with the inequality and I realise I’m falling into the divide and rule trap.

It’s not fair to highlight one group over another. I was wrong to do that. It just feels unfair when one group benefits and others don’t. I just feels there’s not much help for younger families. No one speaks up for them.

Yabu. I furiously protest any decreases to any welfare until every scrap of tax os collected and corporate businesses and individuals who offshore to dodge liability are properly taxed and held to account.

Its a bit chicken and egg- i think welfare minimum needs should be calcuated and tax needs adjusted to meet his need rather than the other way around.

@MadinMarch

Do you actually believe, then, that older people should be on pensions low enough for them to die off through lack of heating and food?

Maybe turf then out of social housing (given the shortage) and prop them up in bus shelters til nature takes its course?

And given your belief ‘natural’ life spans should we return to the natural reduction in population which resulted from the very high levels of death in childbirth of the Middle Ages, perhaps? Or where would you set the threshold?

Do you honestly think many people speak up for pensioners, really?

@Fluto

Do you honestly think many people speak up for pensioners, really?

As others have said the Tory government who are also in power do that, which is why the triple lock is a political point.

There’s no triple lock for other groups. Why not?

but the logic was surely their choices they made when working determined whether they ended up in poverty or not in old age?
As said, we don't know. They could have worked hard, invested in a scheme that they thought was safe and lost it all. The point is that they've reached the stage there is little they can do about it. They are still paying for the consequence because indeed, the state pension alone doesn't allow for a life of luxury.

Younger people have more options to get themselves out of poverty. They could do so, and sadly still end up in poverty in retirement, although with the option of occupational pensions, it is less of a risk.

Younger people have choices. Pensioners don't.

Younger people have choices. Pensioners don't.

It's much more nuanced than that.

@RealBecca

Yabu. I furiously protest any decreases to any welfare until every scrap of tax os collected and corporate businesses and individuals who offshore to dodge liability are properly taxed and held to account.

Its a bit chicken and egg- i think welfare minimum needs should be calcuated and tax needs adjusted to meet his need rather than the other way around.

I agree, plus some proper targetting of the black economy, i.e. unregistered traders, resale of duty free booze and fags, illegal drugs, "cash in hand" jobs, etc etc. The official statistics show tens of billions of pounds of tax revenue is lost to the black economy, that's "normal" people living on our streets, our friends, family, neighbours, etc. Tax evasion needs tackling at all levels!

Yes but you're upset individual pensioners aren't speaking out for other groups, aside from politically, who do you think speaks out for pensioners which would be an equal equivalence? People largely have distain and view them as a burden as seen by this thread and many others.

When I first started working it was made clear that I was paying tax to contribute to the government for general spending and national insurance for my pension contributions and a contribution to the NHS. Back then state pension wasn't thought of as a welfare benefit, but as a pension scheme you paid into like any other.

The only difference being that if any other pension scheme had moved the goalposts or spent one persons contributions on current pensioners payments like the government does they'd be facing criminal charges. When paying 10% of our salary in NI we didn't expect it to "just" keep us out of poverty, we expected a reasonably comfortable pension.

Then the purpose of NI become more woolly, pension age went up and people were expected to have company pensions. When I eventually retire I don't expect any benefit from my decades of NI payments, I only expect a company pension.

And don't forget the pension spend has already been slashed by increasing the pension age. People are living longer, but as my grandad use to say increased life expectancy doesn't equal increased quality of life. Retiring at 60 or 65, for most, meant a few good years to enjoy after retiring from work. At 70 more pensioners have life limiting conditions.

I do agree that if furlough has skewed the figures, they should be adjusted and that high earning pensioners could have their state pensions cut (but calculated through hmrc figures, not an application form that many would lose out simply through not filing in), but other than that think pensioners have earned their pension and deserve all its benefits.

Surprised to hear people comparing to those on furlough being in financial distress. I'm sure some would be, but all those I know were okay financially as the 20% reduction was balanced out with savings in travel and childcare. Others got 2nd jobs and were better off. The pensioners I know shielded and were utterly miserable - I know not all were.

@vivainsomnia and @Bryonyshcmyony

I’m not convinced by the argument that younger people have more choices necessarily. They also have more liabilities, expenses and responsibilities to juggle. Raising families etc.

What problems are young people facing? - “Growing inequality between generations has been exacerbated by the pandemic and has left many people in their teens, twenties and thirties feeling like they have got a raw deal.”

It just feels unfair when one group benefits and others don’t. I just feels there’s not much help for younger families. No one speaks up for them.

That’s not wholly accurate OP. Every single election and a lot of the political discussion in between is about “hard working families.” And we all support children from free nursery hours right through to 6th form education.

If you want to play top misery trumps, a single person on sickness benefit or unemployment but genuinely seeking work or single people in precarious employment on national minimum wage are often totally overlooked.

So we don’t need to also protect any of the vulnerable in that group?
Who said that? There are adults in vulnerable groups who should also be protected. Never said they shouldn't. I was referring to adults who choose not to work FT, and a poster stated that it was their right because they wanted to spend more time with her kids but still think that choice should come with more money.

Very different scenario to a mum who was working FT but had to give that up because she can't find any childcare for her disabled child or it isn't appropriate.

@BendyTrendy - well they can afford what they want to afford. Government planes, new Royal Yacht (which the Royals don't want), billions on crony contracts, paying off senior Civil servants bullied by the Home Secretary, new Press room, flags & pictures of the Queen for every Cabinet minister etc etc.

I’m not convinced by the argument that younger people have more choices necessarily. They also have more liabilities, expenses and responsibilities to juggle. Raising families etc.
the two are not exclusive of each other. You can have more liabilities expenses and responsibilities but still more choices to deal with them.

@Bryonyshcmyony

Younger people have choices. Pensioners don't.

Not all young people do. Some young people (ones with severe disabilities for example) have much fewer choices and are much more vulnerable than some pensioners.

I don’t necessarily have an issue with universal benefits to ensure vulnerable are not missed. But every single group in society has extremely vulnerable people within it. Pensioners as a group are not more deserving just because of their age.