To feel mean thinking it's reasonable for the pension triple lock to be broken?

[BendyTrendy]

Tricky one because our state pensions are lower than the rest of the EU, but also the largest area of welfare spending (at about 42% of the welfare budget).

Still, on balance, I think it's reasonable to break the triple lock under the circumstances of both Brexit and Covid recovery.

Can the country justify an 8% rise to the state pension under the circumstances? Is the triple lock on pensions sustainable? I feel mean even asking the questions, but tough choices must be made.

Boris Johnson signals 'triple lock' on pensions could be broken amid estimates of 8% rise

State pension predicted to rise by 8%

Rishi Sunak hints at suspension to pension triple lock

Tough one.

I'm also confused about how donating to charity or volunteering somehow makes you an exemplary person with humility & empathy. Jeffrey Epstein, Philip Green, Harvey Weinstein to name a few were very generous charity wise.

@saywhatn

I'm also confused about how donating to charity or volunteering somehow makes you an exemplary person with humility & empathy. Jeffrey Epstein, Philip Green, Harvey Weinstein to name a few were very generous charity wise.

If you are determined to never see good in anyone you won't

What would please you as a display of empathy and humility apart from not being old?

@Bryonyshcmyony I disagree with another income tax hit as that's already been hit in the budget.

I don't disagree with dropping the triple lock & reinstating it later but that won't be popular.

@Bryonyshcmyony umm not sure what point you are making.

My point is donating to charity doesn't automatically equal humility & empathy. You are free to disagree though.

Who has suggested that those who do and help are exemplary? Would you rather I and others just did nothing, just an "I'm alright Jack" mentality?
I'm sure you are not unaware about how volunteering and charities plug a pitiful gap.
It's about giving and helping your fellow human being, especially those who are struggling.

No idea what that's to do with Weinstein and Epstein.

Wtf is an "unnaturally long" life anyway? 200 years ago if you had three kids one of them wouldn't make it to five years old. Should we therefore kill one in every three babies to put things back to how they were? Maybe off a few thousand 20/30/40-somethings to make up for the ones who've "unnaturally" survived in the meantime?

There is no perfect equilibrium. You deal with the population you've got. You make provision for the people who are actually around you, not those who "should" be there according to some mad theory about who deserves to live.

Unless you're into eugenics.

[quote saywhatn]@Bryonyshcmyony umm not sure what point you are making.

My point is donating to charity doesn't automatically equal humility & empathy. You are free to disagree though. [/quote]
So what would you use as an example of a wealthier pensioner showing humility and empathy?

Are we just going to ignore that the age of mothers & first time buyers has increased & people are having less children in general?
Indeed, but people continue to make the decision to have children under 30 and more than 2 before they buy. Many young people do manage to become first time buyers still, it is still very possible. Choice is definitely a factor, if not the only one, in the outcome.

you didn't explain how to tackle wage stagnation & less generous private pensions?
We squeeze and trust things will get better for all soon. We don't take from Peter to give to Paul, when Paul has more options to get more income than Peter.

By that logic are you saying it's ok to for pensioners to be poor? Or that if pensioners are thrown into poverty as as a result of loosing the triple lock it's because they didn't save accordingly & make the right choices?
There is no logic there at all. Pensioners, in the majority don't have much choices to get out of poverty. The only way to go so that one can control is working and earning an income. At 70, few pensioners can cope in every way with a job. They are therefore in the vulnerable group, not as individuals, because some are able to work still, but as a majority, they are.

So what would you use as an example of a wealthier pensioner showing humility and empathy?

If they were strangers that I wouldn't form that judgement just based on the fact they give to charity. Some wealthy people donate simply to reduce tax liabilities or do you disagree?

If I knew them then I would know whether they were empathic or not.

[quote saywhatn]@DancesWithTortoises was it low in comparison to living costs? Today's is means tested & in my opinion pretty low, no one is having lots of kids for £14 a wk. [/quote]
I didn't say anyone was.

But with the addition of social housing and housing benefit some may think it worthwhile.

@vivainsomnia but the logic was surely their choices they made when working determined whether they ended up in poverty or not in old age?

It is simply disgusting to break promises on pensions. A pension is a delayed benefit, you pay when you are younger to get it when you are older. To pay when you are younger then not get it when you are older is criminal and they should be allowed a proportional refund of their original payments. If more money is needed to pay any benefit then tax should go up with a new bracket for the top third earners.

@saywhatn

So what would you use as an example of a wealthier pensioner showing humility and empathy?

If they were strangers that I wouldn't form that judgement just based on the fact they give to charity. Some wealthy people donate simply to reduce tax liabilities or do you disagree?

If I knew them then I would know whether they were empathic or not.

You seem very happy to judge pensioners in other ways.

We squeeze and trust things will get better for all soon

I think that's a terrible plan

We don't take from Peter to give to Paul, when Paul has more options to get more income than Peter.

and yet you are going on about those who either don't work or work p/t and get benefits?

@DancesWithTortoises ooh that's very judgemental of you!
Please highlight where have I judged pensioners?

At the point she called me old I’d have told her to get off my land and her cf brother can pick it up from the towing company.

@ChiefInspectorParker you are right but....

Don't forget, that even if you are in your 30s now, one day you will be receiving the state pension. A lower increase now will also affect how much you get when, all of a sudden, you are eligible for your state pension, and perhaps, although fit, have one or two age related ailments that prevent you taking on any work to supplement the pension. Be careful what you wish for.

I think most people in their 30s will see their pension age move out again, it's already 68 for them.

@Lincslady53

Don't forget, that even if you are in your 30s now, one day you will be receiving the state pension. A lower increase now will also affect how much you get when, all of a sudden, you are eligible for your state pension, and perhaps, although fit, have one or two age related ailments that prevent you taking on any work to supplement the pension. Be careful what you wish for.

Younger people have no realistic expectation of any state benefit. It's obvious that it's not substainable. That's why workplace pensions have been introduced - once today's younger workers reach retirement age, they'll live on their workplace pension, not the state pension.

obviously kids can't vote.

So we need to vote on their behalf then. Like planting trees whose shade we will never see.

anybody who wants to see the triple lock brocken should think about their futures when they are pensioners....its also a contributory system. Top up benefits are not the cheapest way of dispensing money. It requires a ststem for assessing the need, appealing, paying the benefit and checking that there is not fraud. oh and TV licences are no longer free.

@converseandjeans

People already pay tax on their pensions.

What about when you get old?

The personal tax free allowance has doubled in a decade, so there are huge numbers of pensioners who have been taken out of income tax altogether, i.e. most people living on the basic old age pension. They're not taxed on other state benefits, such as housing benefits, free prescriptions, etc.

It's the pensioners with other income who pay tax, at the same income levels as everyone else (same tax free allowance).

Difference is that pensioners don't pay NIC unlike other workers, they don't pay student loan repayments, they don't lose child benefit if their income is over £50k.

It's the middle aged, middle income workers who get screwed for "tax" rises, time and time again. We need to spread the burden more to get more tax revenue from those with higher incomes, and that includes pensioners with gold plated pensions, investment portfolios, buy to let properties, etc. There's no justification at all why NIC is only borne by "workers" and not by others with higher incomes from non-working sources.