To feel mean thinking it's reasonable for the pension triple lock to be broken?

[BendyTrendy]

Tricky one because our state pensions are lower than the rest of the EU, but also the largest area of welfare spending (at about 42% of the welfare budget).

Still, on balance, I think it's reasonable to break the triple lock under the circumstances of both Brexit and Covid recovery.

Can the country justify an 8% rise to the state pension under the circumstances? Is the triple lock on pensions sustainable? I feel mean even asking the questions, but tough choices must be made.

Boris Johnson signals 'triple lock' on pensions could be broken amid estimates of 8% rise

State pension predicted to rise by 8%

Rishi Sunak hints at suspension to pension triple lock

Tough one.

I think it should stay. But if it goes it goes. But I still think it would be wrong.

We already have a pathetic pension- as you've stated it's the lowest in Europe. No it shouldn't be touched

Interesting times if the Tories are going to do something that will be so unpopular with their core voters. Makes me think of May's ill fated attempt to introduce the idea of changes for paying for elderly care in the 2017 election campaign. Govt has got a lot quicker at U turns since then.

No! Pensions in this country are already shit and among the lowest in Europe. Pensioners have contributed to the community more than any other group. Show a bit of gratitude.

I honestly find it really hard to understand any argument for why you wouldn't suspend the triple lock in this situation, where it would be hugely hoisted above inflation due essentially to a statistical anomaly. I am all for pensions rising with inflation but I do think it's strange and distasteful to say that pensioners specifically should profit from Covid. If people think that there needs to be a big above inflation boost to pensions then that should be argued for in and of itself, rather than just taking the opportunity of this statistical oddity. I'd feel differently if there had been a genuine large rise in average wages but there hasn't been.

@memberofthewedding

No! Pensions in this country are already shit and among the lowest in Europe. Pensioners have contributed to the community more than any other group. Show a bit of gratitude.

What about gratitude for the future generations who have made sacrifices to protect the vulnerable and elderly during the pandemic?

The simple facts are the we can't afford an 8% rise. That's not fair on the younger generations who have lost jobs or had to make other sacrifices.

@Hardbackwriter

I honestly find it really hard to understand any argument for why you wouldn't suspend the triple lock in this situation, where it would be hugely hoisted above inflation due essentially to a statistical anomaly. I am all for pensions rising with inflation but I do think it's strange and distasteful to say that pensioners specifically should profit from Covid. If people think that there needs to be a big above inflation boost to pensions then that should be argued for in and of itself, rather than just taking the opportunity of this statistical oddity. I'd feel differently if there had been a genuine large rise in average wages but there hasn't been.

The main argument is political. Pensioners are more likely to vote Tory. Tories protect their triple lock at the expense of everyone else.

Then comes along a plague that initially was a greater risk to the older generation and we lock down to protect them. That was the ethical thing to do, but you can see why there's a bit of resentment now.

The pensioners must pay their price too.

Pensioners have contributed to the community more than any other group.

Tough to make that argument after a pandemic where key workers have put themselves at risk and young people have given up their freedoms to protect the elderly.

@BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand

If we can't afford to pay a pension high enough that pensioners can all afford food and heating, we need to look at how to raise tax take. Not cut pensions.

This

See I don't think suspending the triple lock would mean pensioners would be 'paying the price', as pensions wouldn't have to be frozen, just increased by something that's a more reasonable measure of inflation in these strange times. It wouldn't mean taking anything away from pensioners, it simply wouldn't mean handing them a significant and previously completely unexpected windfall simply because a pandemic screwed with the statistics for average wages.

Tax the high earners.

Tax everyone.

@Hardbackwriter

See I don't think suspending the triple lock would mean pensioners would be 'paying the price', as pensions wouldn't have to be frozen, just increased by something that's a more reasonable measure of inflation in these strange times. It wouldn't mean taking anything away from pensioners, it simply wouldn't mean handing them a significant and previously completely unexpected windfall simply because a pandemic screwed with the statistics for average wages.

It might feel like they’ve paid a price though. If they expect 8% but get 1%, for example.

@Bryonyshcmyony and @BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand
I’m not sure raising taxes is the answer. Working people have sacrificed enough during the pandemic. Many lived off 80% of their salary and some took salary cuts.

Many people paying taxes can’t afford to buy their own home. Many pensioners on the other hand already pen their own home without a mortgage.

There needs to be some balance. The favouritism for pensioners triple lock comes from a political motivation.

If any government could do it, it would be this one right now. Firstly for their unwavering and incomprehensible popularity and the collapse of the opposition. But also there has never been a better way to frame the narrative: can anyone reasonably justify why any group of the population should BENEFIT from covid? Of course that's just what our tory overlords have been doing, but voters seem inexplicably blind to that...

Raise taxes across the board by 1p. Not sure when we are going to accept this is what needs doing

@Pedalpushers

If any government could do it, it would be this one right now. Firstly for their unwavering and incomprehensible popularity and the collapse of the opposition. But also there has never been a better way to frame the narrative: can anyone reasonably justify why any group of the population should BENEFIT from covid? Of course that's just what our tory overlords have been doing, but voters seem inexplicably blind to that...

Karma is a bitch.

Pensioners cannot go out and earn more money, they can't get a second job, they are likely to have health issues which would prevent them from earning any money to top up their pensions. How are you expecting them to be able to manage?

They have paid tax and national insurance all their working lives. They have done their bit and earned their pensions. Many retired women don't qualify for the full state pension because they didn't pay the full NI contribution (a situation not of their making).

You say that many pensioners already own their own homes. Well the Tory voters might, and no doubt they also have shares and private pensions and whatever else. But what about all the other pensioners who don't have that luxury? The ones who have worked in low-paid jobs all their lives and live in rented accommodation? They are not comfortably off. Far from it.

Many people paying taxes can't afford to buy their own homes and who is it who has priced them out of the market? Try blaming buy-to-let landlords and 2nd home owners, not pensioners.

Of course it is the biggest part of the welfare budget, it is the one that everyone eventually claims. It isn’t an emergency safety net like other welfare benefits.

It is also the one that everyone who has worked has paid into, every week of their working lives.

And the people who will find a squeeze on pensions hardest are this on basic state pensions, with incomplete records for the full amount, living on pension credit.

Surely we can solve this without pitting one kind of poor person against another?

As much as I don't want to pay extra taxes, most pensioners cannot increase their income. I can seek a better paid job.

It's not fair to go after our pensioners. Those of us of working age need to foot the bill.

What about those who are dependent on their state pension? It's very unfair.
I am 62 and working my guts out in a low paid job, it's very physical work and I'm too old really but I have no choice.
I expected to retire at 60 all my life but they changed it to 66, so I still have 4 more years. I can hardly pay my rent never mind save anything but I do my best. I will be absolutely dependent on the state pension when it comes....if it ever comes....that will be all I have to live on.

For those thinking that "lots of pensioners have mortgage free homes" and so forth, well, lots of us don't as well. I have no assets, I rent, even my car is leased and I won't be able to pay for it when my state pension kicks in. I only hope they don't withdraw the free 'bus pass when I get to the right age.

Suspending the triple lock means that the state pension won't keep up and by the time I reach retirement, I still won't be able to afford to live. Do you really think I'm going to be able to work until I'm 80-odd???

@sopositivelynegative

As much as I don't want to pay extra taxes, most pensioners cannot increase their income. I can seek a better paid job.

It's not fair to go after our pensioners. Those of us of working age need to foot the bill.

Not everyone can just seek a better paid job for many reasons. Those minumum wage jobs have to be done by somebody. Bit hard to expect someone to foot the bill when their wages are so low they rely on UC top ups.

@milian

Given the 8% average earning growth is an obvious anomaly caused by a large number of (working) people being on 80% or less of their normal salary last year and mostly back at normal levels this year, I think it would very reasonable to drop to a “double lock” of inflation or 2.5% for this year.

This. The 8% is a quirk of the furlough interacting with the calculation method.

Surely they can recalculate the figure taking the anomaly into account.
The statisticians must be able to identify the reason the figure is over inflated (if it is).

The State Pension does seem to be low. The triple lock was probably introduced to address this. I don’t think the government thinks pensioners on basic state pensions will be booking holidays in the sun because of it. More likely they realise the State Pension barely covers basic bills.

and even those that don't own homes outright are far more likely to have rent and secure tenancies covered by benefits than working age people

Except pensioners with a younger partner who were hit by the changes back in May 2019. I wonder how many of them got sick from Covid after their younger partner brought it back from the workplace.

Maybe you need to watch Daniel Hewitts recent very big expose on social housing before you make those assumptions. I said the community rhetoric and civic duty crap only counts when its Covid related. And that we would soon be back to the default setting. I didnt expect to be proved right so quickly. But then the vaccine uptake has been very successful so i guess ppl feel safer to cry for the old status quo to return.