To ask why people this Laurel the weightlifter will win?

[PollyPopa]

She's biologically male obviously but also hasn't got as good a personal best as some of the other (biologically female) competitors

Just wondering, that's all! I don't agree she should be in that competition either by the way but nothing to say she will win since her personal best isn't as great as some of the others

I hope he win gold and smashes records. People might just see how ridiculous this is.

Laurel has taken a place from a young, NZ woman of colour who should rightfully be at the Games. Laurel simply shouldn’t be there.

^That is the main issue here. It makes no difference whether or not Laurel wins any medals, it isn’t the point.

Just in case posters aren't aware, LH is not benefiting from testosterone. This is heavily tested before competing.

I think what you mean is that he is not currently benefiting from testosterone by having taken blockers or balancing hormones to ensure that he is within the guidelines. That doesn't remove the fact that testosterone has contributed to the current muscle make up of his body and given him an unfair advantage.

Just in case posters aren't aware, LH is not benefiting from testosterone. This is heavily tested before competing.

Could you explain how LH, a biological male who has gone through male puberty, has not benefited from testosterone?

Just in case posters aren't aware, LH is not benefiting from testosterone. This is heavily tested before competing.

It might be heavily tested but, as far as I’m aware, LH’s test results are way above what a natal woman’s testosterone would naturally be. In fact, if a natal woman had the same testosterone levels as LH, she’d be hauled up for doping.

At least the IOC have recognised that the current rules are not fit for purpose because a) they allow a higher level of testosterone than would be permitted for a natal woman and b) they don’t take account of the increasing amount of research that shows other physical advantages from going through a male puberty.

and also because LH;s current permitted testosterone levels is so much higher than a biological woman that if a bio woman had the same she would be disqualified for doping?

You are really quite wrong.

@catfunk - that is totally untrue. LH DOES benefit from elevated testosterone against the natal women LH competes against. LH had to reduce their testosterone intermittently to around 10, which is still degrees higher than natal women possess. If a natal woman recorded the testosterone levels LH did, they would be done for doping….

Just in case posters aren't aware, LH is not benefiting from testosterone. This is heavily tested before competing

Bullshit. The level of allowed testosterone for a man to compete as a woman in the Olympics is of such a level that were a woman to take testosterone to the same level they'd be immediately jettisoned for cheating.

Just in case posters aren't aware, LH is not benefiting from testosterone.

I think the poster means that they have lowered their level to the level required by the IOC; a level 10 times higher than the average woman's level.

LH still has a male body though , giving them huge advantages in strength etc over women.

A woman who had the same level of testosterone as Hubbard would be disqualified for doping.

[quote clickychicky]@LostDonkey if he doesn't even identify as a woman then no he shouldn't be winning awards for women. I am surprised he accepted it.[/quote]
Bounce insisted on being in the women’s category. Bounce is Hubbard in a desk job.

[quote clickychicky]@Mulletsaremisunderstood well.. I thought surgery and hormones would be enough for me but this thread is making me reconsider.[/quote]
Sorry clickychicky I wasn't getting at you specifically, just frustrated at the concept of a woman costume being all it takes.

I was where you are a few months ago, wondering what all the fuss was about. I genuinely thought if these people were struggling and in so much distress with their bodies that they would go through extreme surgery, then we should help them and feel sorry for them.

I still think that about people genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria. The problem is that in the last few years, what 'trans' is has changed massively. Hormones and surgery are no longer required. Anyone can be trans if they simply declare it.

I live in Ireland, where Self ID is now in law. This means that any man can fill out a form, pay a small fee, and be legally declared a woman, for all purposes. It was brought in without public discussion about what this would do to women's places and spaces in society.

This has lead to male rapist being put in the women's prison. These males 'identify' as women (whatever the hell that means) but have their genitalia fully intact. That is horrific, and it's happening in lots of places.

The media are not fully reporting on this. They will report crimes committed by TW (self declared, no surgery/ hormones required) as being committed by a woman. How is fair and transparent reporting?

Even MN doesn't really want us talking about this, which is why we have been mainly shunted off the the Feminist board (not even the main one anymore) and people complain if anything is mentioned on other parts of the site. Even though this is something that affect women hugely.

Agree @Mulletsaremisunderstood, similar situation in Scotland where SNP have declared that a board made up of half men and half transwomen is sex balanced.

Anyway we digress. As long as it isn't done in order to take some advantage over women i'm much the same as you, surgery and hormones then crack on with however you want to be. Not for children and preferably after mental health treatment. How we allow people to mutilate their bodies for a mental health condition I don't know, but we are where we are.

So in the final end game with all this inclusive woke nonsense only the strongest men will “complete” in all events and claim they identify as a woman if not strong enough to beat other men. Not sport but just a mockery of cheats gaming a material differential advantage against innocent fair play level playing field athletes. This will be the sad end of sport as we still know it.

We have already fluid nationality rules with sports immigration giving an advantage to multinational teams including Team GB and especially USA who can simply import talent whether just competitors or their world class coaches too. So when one views the current Olympic medals table - some counties with indigenous athletes born, trained and crafted their sport within their origin nation or those that use their sporting ability to immigrate to another nation. In that light the Chinese at the top and Japan near the top of the table are all the more credible with only internal and less or none international athletes and coaches. Many of the USA unlike China, Japan or RussIa etc originally developed their sporting powerless overseas and now represent their new Olympic colours. Here is an extensive list of international sports migration or representation for more than one nation. This makes a mockery of the international medals table too.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sportspeople_who_competed_for_more_than_one_nation

It used to be legal to rape your wife & beat your children.

Do you think that means all those raped women & beaten children should just think it was okay it happened to them & give accolades to the men who did it because 'it was allowed'?

Is the fact that those men wanted to do it, thought they were entitled to do it & were permitted in 'the rules' to do it a good enough excuse?

Or are some things deeply wrong no matter what the 'rules' say?

I don't care if Hubbard goes out drinking all the night before & comes last, they are still abusing women by taking what should be theirs. (The place, the ability to say they were on the Olympic team, the chance to maybe win).

Nobody is entitled to be 'included' in the Olympics, nobody gets to expect to be in the Olympic team & that includes elite athletes who have trained their whole lives to have a chance to be.

@Mulletsaremisunderstood oh no need to apologise I am very open to having my views challenged and this thread and others have already made me think I need to read up more. I had no idea the permitted testosterone levels were so much higher than for an average woman and that alone has made me a bit uneasy so who knows how I feel when I read further.

@clickychicky what a mature and honest response. I wish more people were able to have such intellectual integrity. I suggest reading some threads on the sex and gender board. It really opened my eyes too.

Contact sports are where the rubber really hits the road. Which is why World Rugby is against trans women playing in women's teams. They have reviewed all the evidence and concluded it is highly unsafe for women.

Obviously World Rugby got denounced for being transphobes for pointing this out.

Good for Rugby. Clearly the woke would rather see women injured.

@ElephantOfRisk

Good for Rugby. Clearly the woke would rather see women injured.

@ElephantOfRisk Yup. Looking at you, Rugby England.

@ElephantOfRisk except both England & welsh rugby have decided to ignore what works rugby said and allow TW to play women’s rugby

www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/49298550

The coach joked that they had a great future provided they could stop ‘her’ injuring the other players in training - oh how we all laughed 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

Yes thank you I have already had a couple of threads there highlighted as a good place to start.

[quote Theeyeballsinthesky]@ElephantOfRisk except both England & welsh rugby have decided to ignore what works rugby said and allow TW to play women’s rugby

www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/49298550

The coach joked that they had a great future provided they could stop ‘her’ injuring the other players in training - oh how we all laughed 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️[/quote]
For fucks sake! Any idea where Scottish Rugby are on it?

Clearly the woke would rather see women injured.

I'm woke. I didn't realise being aware of social and racial injustice and inequality was a terrible trait.