To ask why people this Laurel the weightlifter will win?

[PollyPopa]

She's biologically male obviously but also hasn't got as good a personal best as some of the other (biologically female) competitors

Just wondering, that's all! I don't agree she should be in that competition either by the way but nothing to say she will win since her personal best isn't as great as some of the others

DH is a lifelong rugby fan as he is a borders man and was delighted when I said about the world rugby stance. Who in their right mind thinks this is okay? Better to be seen to follow the woke crowd rather than engage your brain cells for a minute though.

For fucks sake! Any idea where Scottish Rugby are on it?

Unfortunately, not on the side of women.

Not sure if its been said but we know whos place she took-a young maori woman from poverty

It's perfectly possible to be aware and accepting without engaging in this horseshite.

@334bu

*For fucks sake! Any idea where Scottish Rugby are on it?*

Unfortunately, not on the side of women.

Great - not!

[quote clickychicky]@Mulletsaremisunderstood oh no need to apologise I am very open to having my views challenged and this thread and others have already made me think I need to read up more. I had no idea the permitted testosterone levels were so much higher than for an average woman and that alone has made me a bit uneasy so who knows how I feel when I read further.[/quote]
I predict you will get very angry, like many of us have gotten when we realised how far this has gone down the rabbit hole, and what the effects are and will be on women and girls.

Young teenage girls (many of whom are lesbians and/or autistic and struggling with their identity) are being pushed down a road of surgery (removing their breasts) and testosterone, which has all sorts of health implications and can affect their fertility later in life.

This is because they are struggling with body image, depression etc. But their distress is not being explored in a therapeutic way, they are simply 'affirmed' as being gender dysphoric and referred to a gender clinic. Some of these girls only have one or two sessions before they are referred. See the Kiera Bell case.

I realise now why there is no debate from the other side. Because there are no real arguments as to why this is ok. So they shout down and intimidate instead of rational discussion, they hurl insults and call us bigoted and hateful for asking questions. Nobody wants to be labelled a bigot, so it's very effective in shutting people up.

There is a worrying agenda behind this, that actually has little or nothing to do with genuine trans people, and everything to do with powerful lobby groups.

Since pulling back the curtain on this I am so so angry at what is being done in the name of being 'kind and progressive'.

It’s the advantage of the third leg for balance.

I realise now why there is no debate from the other side. Because there are no real arguments as to why this is ok. So they shout down and intimidate instead of rational discussion, they hurl insults and call us bigoted and hateful for asking questions. Nobody wants to be labelled a bigot, so it's very effective in shutting people up.

Exactly, if you are not on board with all of this then you are labelled, transphobic or racist or whatever. I know not every argument needs to come back to the nazis, but this is how such things come to being, because dissenters or those who see the emperor is naked, or see the squirrel that is sent to distract are shut down and made to feel as if they are in the wrong.

I don't have daughters, but i have myself and my sisters and my nieces to consider here. And actually also my sons who have been very much raised that women are equals and to treat people with respect etc. who are now expected to participate in hogwash or face a lot of backlash. I don't really care about my career as I'll be retiring soon, so it's easy for me just to ignore instructions to add my preferred pronouns to my email footer. Not so easy for anyone starting out to also do so.

@BlueLobelia

and also because LH;s current permitted testosterone levels is so much higher than a biological woman that if a bio woman had the same she would be disqualified for doping?

You are really quite wrong.

I don’t think they are wrong.

In 2015, the IOC ruled that transgender athletes who identify as female could compete on female teams if their testosterone levels were below ten nanomoles per liter for at least 12 months before the competition. In 2019, World Athletics lowered the maximum level to five nanomoles per liter. By comparison, most cisgender female athletes have testosterone levels between 0.12 and 1.79 nanomoles per liter.

www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2021/07/27/what-makes-an-athlete-female-heres-how-the-olympics-decide/?sh=5b7f69ca4f9c

Its funny seeing opponents of this called far right. The Morning Star and Communist party are gender critical ffs

In my experience when I speak to others about this they seem to understand the (blindingly obvious) issues but fear repercussions so would rather not speak about it or even post about it on social media. The end result really might be someone screen-shotting your tweet and forwarding it to your employer with an e-mail along the lines of

"Dear company X, do you condone your employee Ms.X making publicly transphobic comments online? Is this in line with your company's values."

Oh.. I think I may have wrongly assumed they did already. Like they had to irreversibly have made the switch.

Estimates vary but very few (5-10%) males claiming a feminine identity have genital surgery, quite a few don't take female hormones or medication to suppress male hormones. Lauren has not had surgery but, unless they naturally have an unusually low testosterone level, they will have taken androgen blockers to meet IOC requirements.

@VladmirsPoutine

In my experience when I speak to others about this they seem to understand the (blindingly obvious) issues but fear repercussions so would rather not speak about it or even post about it on social media. The end result really might be someone screen-shotting your tweet and forwarding it to your employer with an e-mail along the lines of

"Dear company X, do you condone your employee Ms.X making publicly transphobic comments online? Is this in line with your company's values."

Yes, this is the campaign to shut people up and keep them in fear so they don't ask more questions or talk about it publicly. So far it has worked really well. I believe for the most part it is well-meaning 'allies' who want to be kind to what they see is a minority of people struggling, they liken it to the struggle for gay rights, but it is really not like that at all.

The term transphobic has been used so often, and so disproportionately as to lose any impact on me. Labelling someone transphobic for not agreeing or for believing that biology matters is ridiculous. And yet we are the hateful ones .

five nanomoles per liter. By comparison, most cisgender female athletes have testosterone levels between 0.12 and 1.79 nanomoles per liter.

Put these numbers on a numberline.

This is a task I would expect year four to do competently.
I'll give you a clue. Five is bigger than one.

@FluffyBattleKitten

five nanomoles per liter. By comparison, most cisgender female athletes have testosterone levels between 0.12 and 1.79 nanomoles per liter.

Put these numbers on a numberline.

This is a task I would expect year four to do competently.
I'll give you a clue. Five is bigger than one.

I'm not sure if that post was to me but if so I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm pointing out that yes trans people are allowed much higher levels than biological women which is wrong.

So yes, I do understand that 5 is greater than 1.

Apologies, the order of the numbers and the use of cis made it look like you were trying to minimise the significance of male levels of testosterone.

As you were!

@FluffyBattleKitten

Apologies, the order of the numbers and the use of cis made it look like you were trying to minimise the significance of male levels of testosterone.

As you were!

No worries, it was a quote from the forbes link below. I hate the word cis but apart from that I liked the fact the link explained the fact that biological men are allowed higher testosterone than women when competing in the same event. Which is so bloody wrong!

Trans athletes retain 12% advantage. www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/07/study-suggests-ioc-adjustment-period-for-trans-women-may-be-too-short

Maybe they should allow women to inject testosterone up to 10 nanomols.

@clickychicky

Maybe they should allow women to inject testosterone up to 10 nanomols.

Clickychiky but then that would be classed as unfair then....the irony 🙄

@clickychicky

Maybe they should allow women to inject testosterone up to 10 nanomols.

Not a good idea. I think the athletes who doped in the past with testosterone ravaged their bodies.

FluffyBattleKitten true. It was meant tounge in cheek. But I had no idea until today just how unfair it is.

i know it would take tremendous courage and agreement amongst all the FEMALE athletes whos sport is corrupted by a transgender woman to boycott the event. Yes that particular Olympic year may be their last chance at a medal, but a big big show of unity on this would be seen all around the world.

@tootiredtobother

i know it would take tremendous courage and agreement amongst all the FEMALE athletes whos sport is corrupted by a transgender woman to boycott the event. Yes that particular Olympic year may be their last chance at a medal, but a big big show of unity on this would be seen all around the world.

It would be even better if the men taking part in the equivalent male event also took action in support of the female athletes rather than women being left to shoulder the entire burden and make all the sacrifices for an injustice that was imposed upon them without discussing it with them or seeking their consent.

Perhaps it should be a bit like the Paralympics with medically categorised events for a fair and level playing field and less cheating using drugs or new hybrid gender variants.

Women and men should demand fair level competition as otherwise it’s not sport but who cheats the most as with banned performance enhancing substances etc.