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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask why people this Laurel the weightlifter will win?

410 replies

PollyPopa · 31/07/2021 19:30

She's biologically male obviously but also hasn't got as good a personal best as some of the other (biologically female) competitors

Just wondering, that's all! I don't agree she should be in that competition either by the way but nothing to say she will win since her personal best isn't as great as some of the others

OP posts:
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9
erinaceus · 02/08/2021 20:25

I am trying to work out whether her performance was staged somehow, there was something about it that did not look authentic.

Kittii · 02/08/2021 20:29

It is the logical next step though. If you accept that a man becomes a woman just because he says so, anyone can become anything just because they say they "feel" like that thing. What is the difference between e.g. a man saying he is actually a woman because he wants to be a woman and someone saying they identify as a different race/ethnicity/age/species?

Or me saying I feel like was always meant to be a rich person so it's OK if I go and steal other people's stuff as that validates my identity as the rich person I should have been born as. What is the difference? It's all based on feelings, is unquantifiable and assumes an entitlement to something you weren't born with.

Chickenyhead · 02/08/2021 20:30

I identify as being on the IOC anyone care to join me?

Delphinium20 · 02/08/2021 20:33

@FluffyBattleKitten

Roviel Detenamo. Remember her name. Post to social media if you can do. Fucking outrage.
Can't agree more.
LimeRedBanana · 02/08/2021 21:35

What is the difference between e.g. a man saying he is actually a woman because he wants to be a woman and someone saying they identify as a different race/ethnicity/age/species?

There is no difference to anyone who hasn’t thrown their brain out the window and/or has a functioning set of eyes.

TableFlowerss · 02/08/2021 22:04

@Kittii

It is the logical next step though. If you accept that a man becomes a woman just because he says so, anyone can become anything just because they say they "feel" like that thing. What is the difference between e.g. a man saying he is actually a woman because he wants to be a woman and someone saying they identify as a different race/ethnicity/age/species?

Or me saying I feel like was always meant to be a rich person so it's OK if I go and steal other people's stuff as that validates my identity as the rich person I should have been born as. What is the difference? It's all based on feelings, is unquantifiable and assumes an entitlement to something you weren't born with.

That’s mental…. Yet you’re example is absolutely spot on.
NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2021 01:46

Further, Caster Semenya, in a case I've followed for many, many years, is the case of a woman with very unusual biology (please don't point out the basics as I've studied this for years myself) who has been treated appallingly by the IOC. Seems that if she were a man who then became female, they'd have let her get on with it. Which is appalling misogyny in my book.

@Polkadots2021 what absolute guff. If you’ve studied the Semenya case for years you would know Semenya is male, with 5 alpha reductase deficiency. They DID let Semenya get on with it for ten years, depriving women of medals, prize money and sponsorship opportunities. That’s the misogyny, not stopping a male from competing against women finally.

FightingtheFoo · 03/08/2021 04:44

FYI there are people who identify as trans species https://www.vice.com/en/article/yvwknv/what-does-it-mean-to-be-trans-species

EdgeOfACoin · 03/08/2021 05:45

@FluffyBattleKitten

Sorry polka, not being goady but I was under the impression that Caster is an individual with xy chromosomes dsd. Is that not the case?
That Semenya is a biological male was my understanding too - I thought 5ARD was a dsd only found in males? I thought it was a case of the external genitalia not developing normally (thus giving the impression of being female) but the inner reproductive system is male. Certainly the testosterone levels for Semenya are in line with that of the average man, not merely on the high side for a woman.

Is my understanding incorrect?

I admit that I struggle to perceive Semenya as having female biology when I watch this interview:

Delphinium20 · 03/08/2021 06:01

My understanding of Semenya is the same. Male due to DSD

Lockdownbear · 03/08/2021 07:18

OMG that interview is something else. I always had sympathy for him thinking he thought was more female than male.
He's a man. Why have they let him away with it?

Quartz2208 · 03/08/2021 09:08

I think with Castor Semenya they were born intersex where it is not necessarily clear what biological sex they are so Castor was determined to be female, brought up female.

So yes the external gentalia did not develop properly. It is a far more complicated issue I think

FluffyBattleKitten · 03/08/2021 09:30

@Quartz2208

I think with Castor Semenya they were born intersex where it is not necessarily clear what biological sex they are so Castor was determined to be female, brought up female.

So yes the external gentalia did not develop properly. It is a far more complicated issue I think

I read elsewhere that actually Castor wore a boy's school uniform and wasn't allowed to change with the girls.

That's without getting into what 'raised as a girl' means beyond sitting down to wee. A lot of raised as a arguments fall back on stereotypes so I don't buy it.

Unless it's raised as a wolf or something, I don't see how the fact you had a blue toothbrush and short hair is relevant.

Lockdownbear · 03/08/2021 09:45

He might have been raised as a girl and I have an element of sympathy for that.
But there is nothing feminine about him. Right down to the way he dresses now, the way he sits (an impressive bit of man spreading), the voice, sorry but he shouldn't be competing against women any more than transwomen should be.

VladmirsPoutine · 03/08/2021 09:46

Caster Semenya isn't a 'man'. She is however one of the best examples of misogynoir I've ever come across.

NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2021 09:55

@Quartz2208

I think with Castor Semenya they were born intersex where it is not necessarily clear what biological sex they are so Castor was determined to be female, brought up female.

So yes the external gentalia did not develop properly. It is a far more complicated issue I think

No it’s not more complicated. Caster Semenya is male. Semenya has a condition called 5 alpha reductase deficiency. Semenya has 46XY chromosomes, testes, male puberty, male skeletal structure, male pelvic angles, male cardiac output, male VO2Max, male lung capacity, male muscle mass, no uterus and never had a period. This condition means the male external genitalia hasn’t formed properly, but the absence of a fully formed penis does not make someone male or of an indeterminate sex. The sex was not immediately obvious, but now it is and now we know Semenya is categorically male.

This was all made public in the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruling that is freely available with Google. It is made clear that this became evident around 2009, when Semenya was 18-19 or so. Despite this Semenya was allowed to compete for 10 years against women, taking medals, prize money and sponsorship.

FluffyBattleKitten · 03/08/2021 09:55

@VladmirsPoutine

Caster Semenya isn't a 'man'. She is however one of the best examples of misogynoir I've ever come across.
Xy chromosomes dsd. Xy is male Xx female. This is a male body with a difference. A male body. Competing against women.
NotBadConsidering · 03/08/2021 09:57

Sorry, but the absence of a fully formed penis doesn’t make someone female or of an indeterminate sex.

Lockdownbear · 03/08/2021 09:58

@VladmirsPoutine

Caster Semenya isn't a 'man'. She is however one of the best examples of misogynoir I've ever come across.
Have you watched that video? I really did have sympathy for him but no. I now really feel for every woman he has completed against.

I can totally understand him racing against girls up until he was 19 and the first tests were carried out. And yes it must have been a massive shock or possibly relief to know he was really a man but why has he been allowed to compete against women?

I'm sure I read that female athletes in the 60s had to prove they were female, by showing their genitals to Doctors. Pretty fucking degrading but has to be better than the screwed up mess we have now. And even more disgusting that records set by those women will have been broken by men.
Something needs to change!

Kittii · 03/08/2021 10:04

Yes Caster has XY chromosomes. This is a helpful article explaining the issues. These issues have nothing to do with skin colour.

www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-about-caster-semenya-she-has-xy-chromosomes/

Chickenyhead · 03/08/2021 10:06

As I understand it, all 3 of the women who came top in the world championships in Canada had the exact same condition.

But hey, no advantage there.

Look the other way.

Why is that not all over the papers?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/08/2021 10:08

@VladmirsPoutine

Caster Semenya isn't a 'man'. She is however one of the best examples of misogynoir I've ever come across.
A few years ago, almost a decade now, I would have agreed with you, in part. I was all for defending CS because they had been socialised as female, thought they were female etc.

I was all for holding off on the condemnation until more was known.

Then we hear SCS tell us that they dismiss 'girls' as weak, being very dismissive. Hear CS telling us that they socialised with the boys at school and was treated with some care.

We know that since CS was 18/19 they have probably known they are male, or at the very least understood their intersex condition

We know that since it became widely known/accepted that CS is male. CS has campaignned to continue to compete in womens sports and has forced a number of change to IOC, IAAF rules - many of which make no sense whatsoever

CS has married, taking a visually masculine role in the proceedings, and indeed in social life in general.

CS has a child and could be the biological fater, with appropriate medical assistance.

And yet still wants to continue with the lucrative female sporting career...

CS is male. 5ARD is a DSD of males.

Lockdownbear · 03/08/2021 11:20

@Chickenyhead - Shocking!

I think I've just concluded they need a 3rd sex, trans and those with intersex conditions can either complete as the males do or in a 3rd - Intersex category.

They don't belong in women's sport.

Chickenyhead · 03/08/2021 11:27

I agree.

I don't believe that you can arbitrarily set limits as to what makes a man and woman equal at that level of sports.

We are talking seconds and minute changes in physiology make huge differences. So being through male puberty must be off the scale.

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