To ask why people this Laurel the weightlifter will win?

[PollyPopa]

She's biologically male obviously but also hasn't got as good a personal best as some of the other (biologically female) competitors

Just wondering, that's all! I don't agree she should be in that competition either by the way but nothing to say she will win since her personal best isn't as great as some of the others

@clickychicky

Oh! I assumed they needed to have made some sort of irreversible commitment to being a woman

You're not alone. A lot of people are unaware of how little a man has to change to be allowed to compete as a woman and therefore don't understand why some of us get so angry.

A man who wants to compete as a woman needs only to commit to identifying as a woman for the purpose of sporting competition for at least four years and to lower his testosterone to a level that is still within the male rather than the female range once a month for the 12 months before competition. There's no need to have surgery or any irreversible form of feminising treatment.

And even if a man did lower his testosterone level for the entire 12 months rather than just for the few days around each test there's evidence that much longer periods of testosterone suppression result in only very small reductions in strength, and no amount of hormone manipulation as an adult can come close to reversing the effects of having gone through male puberty, or of having grown up as a boy rather than a girl and had the advantage of greater opportunities to participate and compete in many sports.

If the regulations don't change, there will be 25-year-old Laurel Hubbards in the women's events in the next Olympics.

I just wonder how the ioc would react if Usain Bolt decided to identify as a woman and want to come back at the next Olympics, as that’s allowed under the rules. Is this what needs to happen so that people who are cool with this to finally see the craziness of this.

Probably already been said but I'm waiting to hear of an example of a trans man competing in the Olympics.

LH should set an example and attempt to qualify for the male bodied competition, using female pronouns and wearing dresses if she wants to.

bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54233946

According to the BBC, Quinn has come out as transgender. May be they float between that and non-binary...

I became disillusioned with the Olympics years ago because of all the cheating. Seeing genuine sportspeople lose out to cheats was soul destroying.

The Olympic authorities ( especially New Zealands ) allowing Laurel Hubbard compete in the Women's Weightlifting has compounded my disillusionment.
It is not a level playing field.

The IoC are wrong. But so is a male who takes the oath and then competes in a woman's class and takes a place from a woman because they aren't good enough to compete in a male class

The disturbing thing is that alot of the time, the statements, policies etc are written/spoken about in such a way that when the inevitable happens, and a woman is paralysed or killed , there's somehow a way in which those responsible can absolve themselves of much of the responsibility. Ultimately the staff on the front line will be thrown under the bus while the big guns walk away having basically preemptively distanced themselves already.

There will not be the support/back up that these clubs and coaches will be expecting. They will carry the blame and the financial implications entirely themselves

@Mandalay246

It's not cheating though - regardless of your views - she has met all the rules/restrictions that the IOC have put in place

Your anger needs to be at the IOC not her!

Exactly. You can froth all you like but she is at the Olympics and no amount of these tedious threads is going to change that!

"Tedious" yet you found the time to add a post that adds nothing to the thread.

Yet these "tedious" threads are showing more people just how absurd this situation really is.

KohlaParasanda

You're not alone. A lot of people are unaware of how little a man has to change to be allowed to compete as a woman and therefore don't understand why some of us get so angry.

Probably a good time to bring up Philip/Pippa Bunce who came 32nd on top 100 women in business. This is someone that identifies as "gender fluid" not even as a woman and has taken a place off a woman that deserves this award.

when the inevitable happens, and a woman is paralysed or killed

This becomes more likely every time a woman faces a male competitor, whether diectly in a contest, or through having to push herself to train beyond her physical limits.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

Winner = white male Losers = women everywhere

Would it be ok if Laurel was black? No. Are all trans women white. No.

This is about sex, not race.

@FrippEnos

KohlaParasanda

You're not alone. A lot of people are unaware of how little a man has to change to be allowed to compete as a woman and therefore don't understand why some of us get so angry.

Probably a good time to bring up Philip/Pippa Bunce who came 32nd on top 100 women in business. This is someone that identifies as "gender fluid" not even as a woman and has taken a place off a woman that deserves this award.

Pips Bunce - peaking people everywhere since 2018. We should give him a medal.

@clickychicky

Oh! I assumed they needed to have made some sort of irreversible commitment to being a woman

What does 'being a woman' even mean though really? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious what you think it takes to be a woman.

A commitment to being a woman is some sort of nonsense that simply panders to that person's view of themselves. It has no bearing on the reality of actually being a woman and experiencing the world they way we do, and the limitations we face because of our biology.

Is it wearing women's clothes, or having long hair and wearing make up? I know plenty of women who don't wear make up and wear jeans and workboots. Are they not women?

To me it's my biology, which is immutable and unchangeable, no matter how much I would like to be able to change it sometimes.

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I just genuinely don't understand how someone can become a woman if they are not already one. 'Woman' is not a feeling or a costume for men to try on if they are uncomfortable being men.

@shallIswim

Probably already been said but I'm waiting to hear of an example of a trans man competing in the Olympics.

Quinn is a transman, but plays on the women's team. Quinn would have no chance of playing on the mens team as biology matters and Quinn knows that.

'''Woman' is not a feeling or a costume for men to try on if they are uncomfortable being men.''

But this is exactly what being a woman is for some men. LH included.

Either that or it is a costume for a man to try on when he fails at his chosen sport AS a man. LH included.

@FrankButchersDickieBow

Hubbard won't win. Hubbard could, if Hubbard wanted to, but Hubbard won't even get a medal.

All eyes are on this and there would be too much of a furore.

This is paving the the way for more biological males to enter women's sports.

This is a 'see, we won't take your medals' exercise, which will make women's sports a free for all for mediocre bio males.

Yes I think this is what might happen. As much as I would like him to win to show up this farce for what it is, I'm starting to doubt whether it will actually make a difference.

There has been many times over the last few months where something happened, and I thought 'this will be what makes people see what's really going on here'. But it didn't. And the next thing didn't either.

It brings to mind the quote that there are none so blind as those that will not see.

For some people, they don't want to see the problem here. Either because they have an agenda, or they just don't care. It's depressing.

@BlueLobelia

'''Woman' is not a feeling or a costume for men to try on if they are uncomfortable being men.''

But this is exactly what being a woman is for some men. LH included.

Either that or it is a costume for a man to try on when he fails at his chosen sport AS a man. LH included.

Yes, indeed. Unfortunately, the 'grown ups' in the room, i.e. the IOC, governments, media, medical establishment etc. Are all just blithely accepting this. And calling it progressive .

Hubbard is a cheat. The IOC is terrible and should be ashamed. Women are losing out because of their craven stance, ignoring the science and listening only to the loud voices of biological males.

NZ sport has lost its fair play credentials over this, and it makes me so mad and embarrassed.

And as PPs have said, it doesn't matter whether Hubbard wins or comes last; Hubbard has taken a woman's place to be on the team. Hubbard has used Daddy's money to get medals at competitions despite being completely mediocre before transition.

Whether these gender issues are cheating or not I believe rules need to accommodate and prevent athletes gaming the system to their advantage using sexual identity which suits their cause. Perhaps there should be an open event for all so a fair level playing field where sex is not the concern but simply being the best what ever gender, former gender or transitional gender etc.

Probably a good time to bring up Philip/Pippa Bunce who came 32nd on top 100 women in business. This is someone that identifies as "gender fluid" not even as a woman and has taken a place off a woman that deserves this award.

For those who don't know, Bunce switches between Philip or Pippa on different days of the week. A senior director at Credit Suisse, Bunce sometimes goes to work in a wig and dress as Pippa for part of the week, the other half in a suit and tie as Philip.

Bunce decided "I’d reached a point in my life where I thought, It’s really silly me hiding this, why am I putting on this facade and keeping all this hidden at work."

Oddly Philip only decided to introduce Pippa to his working life after he'd climbed the corporate ladder as Philip.

After having reached the top of his career as a man, switching to spend half the working week as a woman allowed him to come 32nd on the FT's list of 100 female business champions.

Anothing moving story of a man bravely facing adversity and flourishing.

Has the idea of a separate trans category ever been floated or not? That way everyone would be happy, it would be inclusive and there wouldn't be any to-ing and fro-ing about what constitutes a woman or fiddling about with hormone levels.

Whether these gender issues are cheating or not I believe rules need to accommodate and prevent athletes gaming the system to their advantage using sexual identity which suits their cause. Perhaps there should be an open event for all so a fair level playing field where sex is not the concern but simply being the best what ever gender, former gender or transitional gender etc

So we have mens , mens and mixed then.

Barring maybe horseriding and a couple of other often mixed sex sports let's not pretend that women/females will be adequately represented.

We have such an obvious solution. It just involves telling men /males. No.

At the age of 43, women in weightlifting would have already retired.

You would think that lessons would have been learned after Fallon Fox broke someone's skull. The fight lasted 2 minutes and caused significant damage to Tamika Brents who was unaware that Fox was born a man.

www.sportskeeda.com/mma/news-when-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-broke-opponent-s-skull-mma-fight

Fox was hailed bravest athlete in history. Personally that should have been said about the females who were brutally beaten.

www.breitbart.com/sports/2020/01/22/transgender-mma-fighter-who-fractured-womans-skull-named-bravest-athlete-history/

Lots of fighters protested that Fox should not have been allowed to compete as a women but the rules allowed it.

LH should have respected sportswomen and not even bothered to try out for the Olympics. Or when they won the place said no actually I proved to myself I could get a place but I don't deserve it. If I was born a woman I wouldn't be allowed to compete as my levels are around 10, and women would have been disqualified with those levels due to cheating.

I don't watch the Olympics as have zero interest in sport.

But my god, I just can't imagine how bloody soul destroying and heart breaking it must be for the women who have trained and pushed themselves for years to get to the point where they are at the pinnacle of their sport only to find that the goalposts have moved and instead of competing against other women they're also competing against men who claim being a woman is a 'feeling'.

I feel so sorry for the women in that situation.

What do they do? Do they just give up and stop competing or keep trying to win again someone with superior body strength against whom they haven't a hope in hell of winning?

Makes a complete mockery of the whole Olympic if this is allowed to continue.

@VladmirsPoutine

Has the idea of a separate trans category ever been floated or not? That way everyone would be happy, it would be inclusive and there wouldn't be any to-ing and fro-ing about what constitutes a woman or fiddling about with hormone levels.

It would not make people happy because it wouldn't pander to the validation of a feminine identity, whatever that means, in absolutely every sphere without exception.