To ask why people this Laurel the weightlifter will win?

[PollyPopa]

She's biologically male obviously but also hasn't got as good a personal best as some of the other (biologically female) competitors

Just wondering, that's all! I don't agree she should be in that competition either by the way but nothing to say she will win since her personal best isn't as great as some of the others

@ErrolTheDragonyes give some examples from history of when one group has campaigned and sacrificed to liberate another.

Oh, it was a rhetorical question.
We shouldn't.

@MiladyBerserko

Calling males 'she' reads like consent.

It is not 'kind' to females. It is being complicit in this bullshit.

using preferred pronouns a basic courtesy which harms no-one.

allowing her into a sporting competition that was invented for biological women, in which only three medals are up for grabs is something else entirely.

and it's beyond farcical in a sport that's so overwhelmingly strength based that it has seven different Olympic weight categories.

"it wouldn't be fair to allow a 100lb woman to compete with a 108lb woman, they need to be in different competitions".

"it wouldn't be fair to allow a 108lb woman to compete with a 120lb woman, they need to be in different competitions".

"it wouldn't be fair to allow a 120lb woman to compete with a 130lb woman, they need to be in different competitions".

"it wouldn't be fair to allow a 130lb woman to compete with a 141lb woman, they need to be in different competitions".

etc

etc

etc

and then:

"would it be fair to allow a cis woman to compete against a woman who was until very recently a man, a hulking six foot something brute with a rather noticeable cock and balls bulging out of her leotard? errrrr, yes, I think it would be, provided she takes these pills every day".

Cis an offensive term, please stop using it

Well, yeah, they are a mediocre male weightlifter but still have a biological and physical advantage over most female weightlifter.

using preferred pronouns a basic courtesy which harms no-one.

Of course it does. It harms everyone. It’s how we bloody got here in the first place. We didn’t jump from women’s competition for women to women’s competition for women and certain males overnight. The gradual erosion of boundaries that has led to males competing in women’s competition started with “be nice” and “it doesn’t harm anyone”. When a male is referred to as “she” it confounds people’s natural inclination to marry the two notions together in their heads. If the sex of the person being referred to matches the sex of the subject, people don’t think there’s a problem and aren’t challenged. For example:

“Should she be allowed in women’s competition/prison/refuge?”

The average person who isn’t aware just thinks, “of course, why wouldn’t she?”

Now insert the correct sex-based pronoun:

“Should he be allowed in women’s competition/prison/refuge?”

Instantly there is a challenge to a person’s thought process. We have the pronoun for a male and a subject for females. Straight away the truth is seen for what it is and a more accurate assessment of the situation is able to be made.

This is why there has been a strong concerted push to make pronouns seem benign, not that important, just “being kind”. This is why it’s seen as hateful to use the pronoun accurate for a person’s sex, because it means people don’t really think about what they’re agreeing to.

Incorrect pronouns for a person’s sex cause huge harm to women and girls and I will not comply.

What NotBad said with bells on!! Men, no matter how they present, are not women and I will not use female pronouns for them.

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

@Porcupineintherough

Dont agree *@Floisme*. If the female athletes affected by these decisions dont speak up, their silence reads like consent. Yes there is a price to pay but this issue is crucial to the future of women's sport. No use hoping others will speak for you.

I would be absolutely thrilled if one of them did Porcupine, but it would be at such a high personal cost, and I don't feel comfortable sitting on my sofa and asking that of them. As I've said, I honestly believe viewers, spectators, customers, supporters of grassroots sport, could together stop this tomorrow if we put our minds to it. (Ok maybe tomorrow's an exaggeration.)

The State Media have just uploaded a video focusing on the Olympic Games and their decision to include Laurel Hubbard in the women's category.

Well articulated @NotBadConsidering

I wish people would stop deciding what a harness basic courtesy or not.

Correct pronouns can't simultaneously be a small basic courtesy and literal violence if not done.

Something that changes the entire meaning of everything is a huge deal.

And I find not being able to say what I see, and having my language coerced extremely harmful. I wouldn't that abuse from a partner let alone a.comete stranger.

We owe them nothing.

And we do not consent.

And sorry am I missing something here? I'm all for trans inclusion generally - but if a woman is trans then at least insist they have had gender reassignment surgery before letting them compete with natural born women (I refuse to say cis) - not just reduce their testosterone. If you want to be a woman then get your tackle removed. I don't understand why some (read most) trans women keep themselves intact. To me that doesn't make sense.

I can understand why someone would want to avoid potentially painful surgery which is easy to botch - there are many horrible nightmare stories on Reddit about it all - it's all irreversible damage and if you have a neovagina, you have to constantly maintain it as it's essentially a wound which the body keeps trying to heal. There are horrible realities behind what sounds like simple surgery.

But even if they did all have surgery, a woman isn't just a man without a penis - men who are accidentally castrated don't become female. And there are more ways than one to sexually assault someone.

So I don't think those who have had surgery are any more entitled to female spaces than those who haven't. Especially when their femaleness is based on sexist stereotypes or sissy porn habits.

You also just can't remove being male from a body. It affects everything - body shape, bones, lung capacity.

There is no way to just make it fair.

If you want to be a woman then get your tackle removed. I don't understand why some (read most) trans women keep themselves intact. To me that doesn't make sense.

I don’t understand this either, but we’ll be accused of being obsessed with people’s genitals and to get our noses out of people’s pants. 🤢

If you’re so convinced you’re a woman, why on earth would you want a penis??

Many actual women would be a lot more accepting of transwomen if they were actually willing to take this seemingly small but crucial step.

@lightnesspixie
Even if a male has sex changing surgery, he / they still have the advantage of a male body, bigger, bigger lung capacity, more muscle mass, the legs set into the pelvis at a different, stronger angle.

So no sex change athletics should remain in the male category. Clean and simple, males compete with males, this avoids the argument about what happens with people who are going through the process.

It’s a total given that removal of your penis still does not entitle you to compete against women (or claim you are a women).

It’s just really … um … interesting that so many trans women need to get their tackle intact.

Most transwomen with a gender recognition certificate keep their dick. That was the thing that completely altered my view on this issue. With self-ID transition, even more will keep their dick.
Knowing that changes everything. Hubbard still kept their dick after transition as photos have shown while they have been in competition.

Tbe simultaneous push for children to access medication whilst adults can just self identify is also food for thought.

The number of transwomen who actually have sex reassignment surgery is very small, less than 20% I believe.

Is anyone watching this today? Don't know if I can bring myself to do it.

MNHQ are now removing posts that refer to this person as what they are btw (in case anyone hasn't noticed). You should be ashamed of yourselves but I suspect are not.

If you’re so convinced you’re a woman, why on earth would you want a penis??

Not all transgender people suffer from gender dysphoria. In fact to be transgender it is no longer considered to be necessary to be unhappy about your physical body . Some TRAs consider it to be more about " widening the bandwidth of womanhood" and are more than happy to demonstrate this explicitly on social media.

Just looked at todays BBC Olympic schedule and they do not seem to be covering it (on BBC One anyway). Does anyone know?

I know that a pp suggested we watch it on youtube but if it is on the regular channel then more likely to expose people to whom the issues are brand new.

Well colour me shocked 🙄😉

Just looked at todays BBC Olympic schedule and they do not seem to be covering it (on BBC One anyway). Does anyone know?

Red button?