To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

@MrsRobinsonsHandprints

Are the known TW only known because they announced it then? Could Paris 2024 have TW competing that we do not know are TW?

Quite possibility. There has been speculation over, I believe, the status of some of the Chinese basketball players this Games but no evidence.

I think there were also eyebrows raised at Iran’s women’s football team a few years ago too as well as a couple of the Chinese athletics squad (not at the Olympics).

@Helmetbymidnight

2012: Stephanie Barrett has sex reassignment surgery 2016: Barrett takes up archery 2018-21: Barrett wins gold at the Canadian Championships, breaks the Canadian women's archery score and qualifies for the Tokyo Olympics in the women's individual recurve thestar.com/.../olympic-archer-stephanie-barrett ... 2017: CeCe Telfer is ranked 390th among male NCAA Division II athletes in the 400m hurdles category 2018: Telfer 'transitions' 2019: Telfer is national NCAA Division II women's 400m hurdle champion 2021: Telfer hopes to qualify for the US Olympics 1998-2012: Laurel Hubbard fails to qualify for a single international men's tournament as a professional weightlifter 2013: Hubbard 'transitions' (aged 35) 2014-21: Hubbard qualifies for 11 international women's tournaments, including the Olympics 2013-15: Hannah Mouncey made 22 appearances for the Australian men's handball team, scoring 0 goals 2015: Mouncey 'transitions' 2018: Amid controversy, Mouncey is allowed to play 6 times for the Australian women's handball team, scoring 23 goals Pre 2015: Golfer Hailey Davidson won 0 men's tournaments (in fact it doesn't look like Davidson even qualified for any tournaments) 2015: Davidson 'transitions' 2021: Davidson becomes the first male to win a women's professional golf tournament 2019: Mary Gregory, who had 'transitioned' as an adult, took up professional women's weightlifting and, at Gregory's first tournament, won all nine events at the 100% Raw Weightlifting Federation competition, breaking four world records in the process Pre 2006: Fallon Fox served in the US Navy 2006: Fox 'transitions' 2012-14: Fox becomes an MMA fighter, winning all but one fights; in one fight fracturing a woman's skull 2011: Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy 'transitions' (aged 29) 2012-18: McKinnon / Ivy takes up professional women's cycling and wins the UCI Women’s Masters Track World Championship for the women's 35–44 age bracket After 'transitioning' as a teenager, Maxine Blythin played cricket for both a men’s cricket team where Blythin had a batting average of 15, and the Kent women's cricket team, where Blythin had an average of 124 and was named women's cricketer of the year 'Before transitioning and competing in the women’s events, Kenzie Statz didn’t fare well in the men’s competitions. But [now] the transgender cyclist finishes more than 10 minutes ahead of the next closest competitor.' Pre 2017: Tiffany Abreu is a volleyball player in Brazil's men's Superliga A & B divisions 2017: Abreu 'transitions' 2018: Abreu breaks Brazil's women's Superliga’s single game scoring record against a team that contained three Olympic gold medalists Pre 2018: Valentina Petrillo wins 11 Italian men's Paralympic titles in a career that's coming to an end 2018: Petrillo 'transitions' (aged 44) 2020: Petrillo wins 3 gold medals at the women's Italian Paralympic Athletics Championships in just 24 hours Gabrielle Ludwig 'transitioned' to a woman aged 50, in 2012, and immediately joined Mission College women's basketball team. Ludwig, who is 6 foot 8, 'led the team in scoring with 17 points a game and led the state in rebounding with 18 a game' eu.usatoday.com/.../college-basketball.../1744703/ 2014: Chelsea Wolfe 'transitions' and, the same year, takes up BMX cycling 2017: Wolfe switches to BMX Freestyle after discovering it's an Olympics event 2021: Wolfe is set to be one of the three Team USA BMX Freestyle women to qualify for the Olympics 2018: Sprinter Terry Miller 'now identifies as female' 2019: Miller wins the girls' 55 metre dash at the Connecticut Open Indoor Track Championships, breaking the girls' state indoor record. Second place goes to Andraya Yearwood, who also 'transitioned' Up until 2012: Jillian Bearden is an elite men's cyclist but didn't quite make it to a professional standard 2014: Bearden transitions (aged 34) 2016: Bearden wins the Arizona El Tour de Tucson and becomes a professional peloton cyclist the following year 2007: Amelia Gapin took up running but failed to qualify for any major events 2012: Gapin 'transitions' 2016: Gapin is given a women's slot at the Boston Marathon Michelle Dumaresq took up professional downhill mountain biking five years after 'transitioning'. Dumaresq went on to win the Canadian National Championships two years in a row 2012: Savannah Burton plays for Canada's men's dodgeball team, but it doesn't work out and Burton quits dodgeball 2013: Burton 'transitions' 2015-17: Burton returns to dodgeball and plays for Canada's women's team at two successive world championships Athena Del Rosario 'transitioned' and became a women's NCAA football goalkeeper. Del Rosario has now taken up beach handball and hopes to qualify for the 2024 Olympics Natalie Van Gogh 'transitioned' in 2005 and took up cycling. Van Gogh has now been a professional women's cyclist for nearly a decade, winning at least two major events in that time Jessica Platt 'lived for' ice hockey but failed to make it professionally and quit the sport for seven years. During that time, Platt 'transitioned'. Since then, Platt has returned to the sport, making it as a professional for two Canadian women's teams 2020: Mara Gómez, who had recently 'transitioned', 'signs a contract with Villa San Carlos in the recently professionalised women’s Primera División, after years of journeying through the amateur leagues' In 2009, Chris Bruce 'transitioned' and was competing in women's bodybuilding events by 2011 - 20 years after competing in men's bodybuilding events Juniper Simonis played competitive sports before 'transitioning', to no apparent success. Since then Simonis has won the Women's Roller Derby World Championship four times wftda.org/featured-skater/juniper-simonis Caroline Layt played men's rugby league before 'transitioning' aged 30. Layt then took up women's rugby and was a finalist for 'women's player of the year' 1998: Parinya Charoenphol takes up kickboxing, winning one fight 1999: Charoenphol 'transitions' 2006: Charoenphol is allowed to compete in women's kickboxing, and goes on to win 20 fights, 18 by knockout 2000: Lauren Jeska 'transitions' and takes up fell-running 2010-12 Jeska wins numerous women's events including the 2012 British Fell Running Championships 2017: Jeska is jailed for the attempted murder of a coach who asked to see Jeska's hormone levels JayCee Cooper was a men's competitive curler and rower, who 'transitioned' before 2019 and took up powerlifting. In 2019 Cooper became the USPA Minnesota Women's State Champion while setting the women's bench press record Up until 2020: Kate Weatherly competes in the New Zealand men's downhill mountain bike open division (the grade below elite) but fails to win any events 2020: Weatherly 'transitions' 2021: Weatherly wins the New Zealand elite women's national championship

This is the most depressing thing I've read in a long time.

Women, shut up.

I have a trans sister. She takes part in women’s cycle races and wins every single one as she is so powerful and muscular. Even tho she takes all the necessary medication to dampen down her testosterone it can’t be got rid of completely and so my sister remains the fastest in the race every time.

I am relieved that this is getting more light but isn't it utterly fucking soul-destroying, that the damage is already being done to women, just so that the majority now are having their eyes opened.

I agree. I was going to say how painful I find this - but then I find the whole movement, and all the people who agree with it 'painful'.

I'm still reeling from a very clever bloke I know who believes fervently TWAW - who is now having 'reservations' about Laurel Hubbard. On one hand, I am pleased that he is waking up - on the other, I'm more angry than ever - he was very happy to see male rapists in women's jails, women only refuges disbanded, boys in girl's changing and toilets in schools despite escalating harassment. I just can't get my head round it.

These are the consequences we have been talking about FOR YEARS. Why did no one listen?

@LostDonkey

There was also a thread about the Chinese women's basketball team earlier this week but was deleted for not being "in the spirit of the site". Interesting line up of players.

In other news, Chelsea Wolfe is a reserve for the USA on the women's BMX freestyle competition, who is the official first trans athlete the US is sending to the Olympics. So another opportunity which should have gone to a biological woman has gone to a biological man.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge based just on a photo (I didn't watch the video). Are the Chinese basketball players actually transgender? I googled but couldn't see any info. They could simply be androgynous looking women. I have a few friends who look very masculine but they're definitely women!

Very pleased to see the split between YABU and YANBU!

The winning Women’s 4x400m Relay Team at the 2019 National Championships

From what I can see none of these athletes are at Tokyo, but let’s just say it wouldn’t be a surprise to see others.

@CaveMum

The winning Women’s 4x400m Relay Team at the 2019 National Championships

From what I can see none of these athletes are at Tokyo, but let’s just say it wouldn’t be a surprise to see others.

Sorry, forgot to add that photo was from the 2019 Chinese National Championships

Francine Niyonsaba is male, competed for Burundi in the women’s 5000m but was disqualified in the heat for lane infringement and didn’t make the final.

I agree! I’m 💯 for the right to change your gender! But it’s an unfair advantage. Even Caitlyn Jenner thinks it’s wrong. and like her or not she is a trans women who was an athlete and an Olympian.

@Helmetbymidnight there's a previous poster on this thread whose post basically said along the lines of 'those hateful bitches on the FWR shouldn't be on AIBU and I hate what they have to say but on this issue I have to agree with them - it is unfair. They're still hateful bitches though!'

I mean, this is what TRA's wanted isn't it? That TWAW in all circumstances, no questions asked. Women who've brought up issues which were likely to come about as a result of this have been told to shut up, that they are bigots, that 'it'll never happen' and received death and rape threats for not believing that TW are literally, actually women and have changed sex.

So this is the result. This is what TRA's wanted. And now we are starting to see 'reservations' and 'why aren't the women's groups doing anything?'

YANBU and I think the vast majority of people think this.

The cynic in me thinks that the increase in mixed relay events across the olympics (triathlon, track, swimming etc) is to get people used to males and females competing at the same time to pave the way for increasing numbers of trans people (and lets be honest, it'll be mainly transwomen) competing in sporting events. By the time the current tweens/teens are old enough to compete, we'll have had 2 or 3 olympics with these events and for the vast majority, it'll seem less jarring to see males racing against females.
It doesn't bode well for female sports sadly.

They could simply be androgynous looking women. I have a few friends who look very masculine but they're definitely women!

This makes me sad, I've never questioned what a woman looks like as we come in all shapes and sizes and I believed that if they were competing in a womens competition they were biological women. But now this is not true.

Where is the list of transmen who have made their way onto men's teams and won?

Anyone?

@pinkstripeycat

I have a trans sister. She takes part in women’s cycle races and wins every single one as she is so powerful and muscular. Even tho she takes all the necessary medication to dampen down her testosterone it can’t be got rid of completely and so my sister remains the fastest in the race every time.

Can I ask how your sister reconciles their performance advantage in themselves? Do they acknowledge it at all?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Where is the list of transmen who have made their way onto men's teams and won?

Anyone?

I was about to ask similar! I wonder what the stats are for trans men in male categories vs trans women in female categories. Not just in this Olympics but generally across Elite sport.

I think we can all guess which way it will be weighted and I would love a TWAW defender to explain to me why that would be.

The cynic in me thinks that the increase in mixed relay events across the olympics (triathlon, track, swimming etc) is to get people used to males and females competing at the same time to pave the way for increasing numbers of trans people (and lets be honest, it'll be mainly transwomen) competing in sporting events

I think it will have the opposite effect,as it shows quite dramatically the incredible differences between the sexes. Nobody watching the swimming event can be in any doubt that men swim faster than women.

All the transgender competitors , no matter their biological sex , in the Olympics are competing in the female category.

@334bu

*The cynic in me thinks that the increase in mixed relay events across the olympics (triathlon, track, swimming etc) is to get people used to males and females competing at the same time to pave the way for increasing numbers of trans people (and lets be honest, it'll be mainly transwomen) competing in sporting events*

I think it will have the opposite effect,as it shows quite dramatically the incredible differences between the sexes. Nobody watching the swimming event can be in any doubt that men swim faster than women.

I hope you're right.

@BlackAlys this is the photo I think you referred to up thread of the downcast women who should be one place higher on the podium

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Where is the list of transmen who have made their way onto men's teams and won?

Anyone?

Trans men pose no threat to men, anywhere. Except that they might demand maternity rights if working in a male-dominated industry. Then men will respond with old fashioned sexist bile.

The inclusion of men in women's sport makes me laugh, bitterly, recollecting how male football fans threw a massive three-day mantrum over the proposed ESL a few months ago. The phrases bandied about most were 'unfair', 'undemocratic', 'pure greed' 'all done behind closed doors' and 'lack of consultation.' And the club owners quickly caved in. Where are those men now? Do they think it's fair that there are biological males playing for Iran and Argentina?

I'm still reeling from a very clever bloke I know who believes fervently TWAW - who is now having 'reservations' about Laurel Hubbard. On one hand, I am pleased that he is waking up - on the other, I'm more angry than ever - he was very happy to see male rapists in women's jails, women only refuges disbanded, boys in girl's changing and toilets in schools despite escalating harassment. I just can't get my head round it.

These are the consequences we have been talking about FOR YEARS. Why did no one listen?

Women in prisons 'deserve' what they get. Their human rights are unimportant. The rights of free males are must be protected.

Children should be educated to have the 'correct' views. Children don't harm other children except when they do. The rights of adult males are more important.

Its harder to argue against adult women (particularly middle class women) having equality and that you are a feminist when a 6ft + male is standing next to women on tv having thrashed her in sport. It doesn't do a lot for your cause. Nor does it protect the sexual rights of men...

Apologies, I haven't read the full thread so not sure if this has been shared already.

It usefully lists the women who have lost out in this Olympics due to the presence of a man and I'm reminded that it was only in 2012 that women were represented in each sports category, so women have had less than a decade of fully female participation.

fairplayforwomen.com/women-are-losing-their-olympic-dreams/?fbclid=IwAR3K8q1jbGLAfAs4DlyFFppGjnK5iZfXfZ8QpuHBsmPqWEfiU1QJnwWlOEw

Very pleased that this thread hasn’t been shunted off.

It always amazes me that critics of the “naughty corner” (feminism: sex and gender discussion) manage to know exactly and in some detail what is being posted there, while simultaneously loudly declaring that they never go there on account of all the hatefulness.

There’s something that just doesn’t quite add up about that…if I could just put my finger on it…

I’m not quite so pleased by the level of debate being put up in defence of Hubbard, which is definitely not of a standard to make it onto the podium. Come on! You could do better if you just tried harder, no?

There's a podium photo of a really downcast woman, stood in the shadow of LH, taken about 2 years ago and my heart absolutely breaks for her.

@BlackAlys I assume you mean this stunning photo of equality for men?

LH took top place at the podium in the Pacific Games in Samoa in 2019, meaning Feagaiga Stowers took silver rather than gold. Stowers was called "a ray of hope for young girls and women who might be going through what she had to overcome" by the Samoan Observer, The victim of abuse, she was among the survivors of sexual violence who sought refuge and was given a second chance at life at the Samoa Victim Support Group. Weightlifting was part of the rehabilitation programme where Stowers excelled and found her confidence.

LH is the son of a wealthy ex-politician and was charged with careless driving causing injury after a car crash in 2018. The Judge suppressed LH's name to help LH "avoid the distress of dealing with social media comment while she trained for Olympic qualifying events." This was subsequently overturned as the Judge "had made a number of errors and Hubbard's potential distress did not meet the legal test for suppression."

Prior to transitioning LH did not compete in international weightlifting but suddenly found success since transitioning in 2012, winning several elite titles.

One of these is an inspiring female role model for aspiring athletes. The other is not.