To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

@FluffyBattleKitten

Just to clarify a couple of misconceptions I have seen on this thread:

Is Laurel Hubbard a woman?
No Laurel Hubbard is a transwomen, a male who says they are a woman by virtue of their feelings.

Don't transwomen have surgery to make them women?

No. No surgery can change you from male to female. Even pushing this basic fact aside, statistically most transwomen keep their penis so surgery is the exception rather than the rule.

Don't transwomen have lower testosterone which would negate any advantage they have?

No. The ioc requires testosterone levels to be many times higher than a woman's in individuals who are transgender. If a woman had anywhere near the minimum testosterone level for a trans person she'd be disqualified for doping.

Also men's bodies are powered through puberty by testosterone. If a male has been through puberty they'll have higher muscle to fat ratio and retain this even if they suppress testosterone later.
Men also have skeletal and organ advantages,.like larger lungs that bestoy an advantage not taken away by suppression of testosterone.

Why is this allowed?
In the name of inclusion, only trans representatives were consulted on changing the rules so males could take.part as females. Women weren't consulted.

Where are the feminists? Why didn't anyone say anything?

People are being silenced. People have lost their jobs, had rape and death threats for speaking out. Many media outlets have suppressed what's really happened.

The Olympics isn't important. It's just sports right?

No. Aside from the fact that sports are important, these policies have effected crime statistics, women's prisons, refuges etc.

Surely it's just being inclusive? I'm not a bigot.

Trans people should take part in sport in the category of their sex. That's inclusive.

This policy has meant young women's places on teams and podiums have been dashed. That's not inclusive.

Wonderful post. The attitude from those saying that Hubbard is doing no wrong and arguing this on the basis of "it's just games" disgust me the most.

I don't care for the Olympics. I've no interest in it and ever have. I wouldn't dare to say it's "just games".

There are some cretinous arguments being put forward on this thread. Thankfully by a tiny minority and I'm confident that the AIBU poll result reflects the opinions of the general public.

The problem we have now is turning the tide. Most people agree this is wrong, and yet it's still happening. Again and again and again.

I hope Laurel Hubbard breaks every women's weight lifting record on Monday. By miles. Then maybe everyone will see the emperor in their new clothes.
Unfortunately, given their age, previous injury and their rather mediocre prowess despite their physical advantages, they will probably lose.

The media are really falling over themselves to NOT talk about this aren't they? The issue of sexism in the Olympics comes up; e.g. teams being fined for not wearing bikinis, women's sport being denied sponsorship (BMX), mixed sport is talked about... but BBC and other mainstream channels are ignoring the elephant in the room that is Laurel Hubbard, and any men in women's sport. Really pisses me off.

Slightly off topic but regarding rugby. As the RFU have decided TW can compete in women's rugby but world rugby have said they can't does that mean they can't at international level as that is decided by world rugby? But they could at the women's equivalent to the Aviva premiership?

Here's a link to the Times column (Janice Turner) mentioned upthread

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-more-samoan-to-avoid-olympic-injustice-s22rkn0rw?shareToken=d4edc3f1dbf4407a14c769d17dccdc06

It makes me so fucking angry. There is a trans MMA fighter who broke a competitors skull. Read that again. Broke. Her. Skull. And we're meant to sit here and be told that being born male and going through puberty as a male doesn't confer any physical advantage. Fuck that shit. Do you know how rare a fractured skull is in MMA? We are putting men in a ring to beat women and calling it a sport. And pretending it's fair.

With some sports the utter lack of consideration of women's safety just does my head in.

It's all because across the board it was only looked at and considered from a perspective of. This oppressed group is excluded from sport. That's not fair. The idea that there was no barrier to play with same sex, or the idea to even think what it meant for women. Just was not anywhere in the thinking.

And the reason for that was, not even misogyny. Worse. Just literally not even crossing their minds.

@FluffyBattleKitten

Just to clarify a couple of misconceptions I have seen on this thread:

Is Laurel Hubbard a woman?
No Laurel Hubbard is a transwomen, a male who says they are a woman by virtue of their feelings.

Don't transwomen have surgery to make them women?

No. No surgery can change you from male to female. Even pushing this basic fact aside, statistically most transwomen keep their penis so surgery is the exception rather than the rule.

Don't transwomen have lower testosterone which would negate any advantage they have?

No. The ioc requires testosterone levels to be many times higher than a woman's in individuals who are transgender. If a woman had anywhere near the minimum testosterone level for a trans person she'd be disqualified for doping.

Also men's bodies are powered through puberty by testosterone. If a male has been through puberty they'll have higher muscle to fat ratio and retain this even if they suppress testosterone later.
Men also have skeletal and organ advantages,.like larger lungs that bestoy an advantage not taken away by suppression of testosterone.

Why is this allowed?
In the name of inclusion, only trans representatives were consulted on changing the rules so males could take.part as females. Women weren't consulted.

Where are the feminists? Why didn't anyone say anything?

People are being silenced. People have lost their jobs, had rape and death threats for speaking out. Many media outlets have suppressed what's really happened.

The Olympics isn't important. It's just sports right?

No. Aside from the fact that sports are important, these policies have effected crime statistics, women's prisons, refuges etc.

Surely it's just being inclusive? I'm not a bigot.

Trans people should take part in sport in the category of their sex. That's inclusive.

This policy has meant young women's places on teams and podiums have been dashed. That's not inclusive.

Superb 👏👏

Bloody brilliant that this has stayed in AIBU. There have been plenty of posters asking for AIBU’s to remain here. I posted a thread after the Wi Spa AIBU thread was sent to the naughty corner. Sounds like MN is listening on this score.

Unlikely Daphne by accident or design, Hubbard won't win. Not only is this individual decades older than peak condition, Hubbard has had an injury that if they were taking part in the correct category, would be career changing.

Hubbard is unlikely to win against the dedicated women at the top of their game.

Whether Hubbard wins or loses is irrelevant. A woman has already post their place to a male.competitor; a small nation has lost the chance to represented unfairly.

Whatever happens will only add to the injustice. The injustice has already happened.

This middle aged, person who is visibly not the peak of fitness has turned this event into a joke: showing contempt for the real athletes who have worked hard all their young lives to gain an opportunity that Hubbard lazily walked into by cheating.

Women have already lost. Whatever happens. A middle aged, undisciplined, injured athlete failing to get a medal proves nothing, but you can bet your bottom dollar it wil be pulled out to prove twaw:no advantage. #bantestosteronerequirements.

You don't have to be Mystic Meg to see what's coming.

Absolutely FluffyBattleKitten. Women have already lost if the entire eligibility for women’s competition is “females, plus males with an indeterminable feeling”. Merely making that the entry criteria shows utter contempt for women and girls.

I post repeatedly about how the testosterone ruling is immaterial, the focus should be on why the powers that be - sports organisations, prisons, law makers, spa owners, refuge owners and so on - have decided that males’ feelings are what makes a woman if they say so. It so offensive.

@RedEagles15

Slightly off topic but regarding rugby. As the RFU have decided TW can compete in women's rugby but world rugby have said they can't does that mean they can't at international level as that is decided by world rugby? But they could at the women's equivalent to the Aviva premiership?

Yes that’s right. England/ Wales/Scottish Rugby chose to ignore the World Rugby recommendations and let males continue playing in the domestic women’s game. England Rugby did run a public consultation on their trans inclusion policy earlier this year but there hasn’t been an outcome to that yet.

No, of course men should not be competing against women because they'd like to be female. I can't believe that anyone intelligent thinks this is logical or reasonable.

Is there proof about HR or just speculation?

People are not talking about BMX, because Chelsea Wolfe, the transwoman USA team member is a reserve who didn't compete in the events.

@C8H10N4O2

Hubbard has the male biological advantage and also all the other advantages which accrue to a white, affluent male with a father who just happens to be in a senior position in the sport.

A poor minority woman has been shoved aside to make room for Laurel but she doesn't matter apparently.

However Hubbard is far from the only athlete in Tokyo with male body advantage, just the most well known.

Which other athletes at Tokyo have "male body advantage" please?

People are not talking about BMX, because Chelsea Wolfe, the transwoman USA team member is a reserve who didn't compete in the events.

A poster up the thread a few posts mentioned another name.

Yanbu at all. It's outrageous that this is being allowed to happen. Totally and utterly unfair!

@NashvilleQueen

I hope she wins gold. I hope she smashes every record going for women. Lifts twice as much as the next closest.

Then the world can see what an absolute travesty it is for women's sport.

I wonder if they will deliberately not win, just to muddy the water.... but yes, if they smash it out the park it will highlight the insanity for more people. Tomorrow is a sad day in sport, and generally for women in the future.

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Is there proof about HR or just speculation?

I've asked for my post to be removed I read it elsewhere.

Are the known TW only known because they announced it then? Could Paris 2024 have TW competing that we do not know are TW?

@SixesAndEights

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

Really interesting to see this is the OP's very first sentence. The assumption that her opinion is in the minority and that most of the replies she'll receive will be negative ones.

Almost all positive and with a 98% YANBU rating shows otherwise!

There was a time when the trans issue was ripped to shreds on the AIBU board. Women, socialised you be tolerant, to be kind and accepting, just didn't want to know, and many women in the AIBU at the time scoffed and said "this won't ever happen." It wasn't our finest moment.

I am relieved that this is getting more light but isn't it utterly fucking soul-destroying, that the damage is already being done to women, just so that the majority now are having their eyes opened.

Now that your eyes are opened, please start shifting your gaze around - Sports, healthcare, Prison, education, welfare, jobs. Once you start seeing, you realise how massive this fucking iceberg is.

I cannot get my head around the poor women, who've spent their lives training for their moment, are simply pushed to the side. There's a podium photo of a really downcast woman, stood in the shadow of LH, taken about 2 years ago and my heart absolutely breaks for her.

There was also a thread about the Chinese women's basketball team earlier this week but was deleted for not being "in the spirit of the site". Interesting line up of players.

In other news, Chelsea Wolfe is a reserve for the USA on the women's BMX freestyle competition, who is the official first trans athlete the US is sending to the Olympics. So another opportunity which should have gone to a biological woman has gone to a biological man.