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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

999 replies

Belle82 · 31/07/2021 09:26

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this. Smile

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man. Sad

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
Shakespeare79 · 31/07/2021 19:31

@RaindropsOnRosie
You must know you’re spouting shit. Why do it? What’s your problem?

RedDogsBeg · 31/07/2021 19:32

Clearly you are struggling to understand the performance differences between males and females. There is a reason why sport has always been sex segregated you know.

Nah, they know full well they just don't care.

JulesCobb · 31/07/2021 19:32

@Greyrootszerohoots

What would the IOC do if a 35 year old male boxer transitioned and entered into female boxing a few years later?
Look up Fallon Fox.

I don't follow her sport so I don't know how good she is at it, but if people think she's too good for it I guess that's her advantage
Then look iy up. Look up Hubbard’s weight lifting career as a man. Look up where they would be ranked now as a man. Are they good enough to compete as a man? No.

Jorriss · 31/07/2021 19:33

If the people who aren't good enough at their sport aren't getting or generating enough money for themselves, their team, etc then they shouldn't be there and perhaps should try something else.

So you think men should take women's places in sport then because they're better. I wonder what ulterior motive you would have for thinking that 🤔

MadamBatty · 31/07/2021 19:33

I thought the term Cis was banned on Mumsnet

ohfufoxsake · 31/07/2021 19:33

You are DNBU OP but I wish your thread title could be changed to "LH should not be competing against women". Not 'other women'.

RaindropsOnRosie · 31/07/2021 19:36

@Jorriss

If the people who aren't good enough at their sport aren't getting or generating enough money for themselves, their team, etc then they shouldn't be there and perhaps should try something else.

So you think men should take women's places in sport then because they're better. I wonder what ulterior motive you would have for thinking that 🤔

We're discussing a woman in women's sport, I'm not sure why you think I believe men should be in women's sport? You really are confused, bless.
RedDogsBeg · 31/07/2021 19:37

Paralympians ARE olympians or are you dismissing their achievements at the elite level they compete at?

If it's all down to luck and skill in your mind and there are no advantages inherent in any particular body type then it follows by your logic that paralympians should compete against the able bodied because luck and skill.

Jorriss · 31/07/2021 19:38

Nah, they know full well they just don't care.

For sure. Just like so many males who wish to compete in women's sport. They don't actually give a shit about women. Just need them for validation and props.

WomaninBoots · 31/07/2021 19:39

I think RaindropsOnRosie is attempting to derail a thread that is shedding light on what the general population of women think about males in women's sports.

Quick quick! Look at meeeeeee! Not at ALL THE WOMEN SAYING "NO".

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 31/07/2021 19:39

If the people who aren't good enough at their sport aren't getting or generating enough money for themselves, their team, etc then they shouldn't be there and perhaps should try something else.

You know nothing about weightlifting, as you said, and you know nothing about the Olympic values. It's about striving for excellence and talking part. This is why the athletes have to be amateurs. This is why you have athletes form everywhere competing with each other. Taking part!

RaindropsOnRosie · 31/07/2021 19:39

[quote Shakespeare79]@RaindropsOnRosie
You must know you’re spouting shit. Why do it? What’s your problem?[/quote]
'Spouting shit' suggests I'm lying. I'm sharing my opinion, why would I lie about that and how would you know I'm lying? It's a forum that anyone can join, the whole point of it is we all share our opinions. That includes the opinions of people like me who don't hate women.

Jorriss · 31/07/2021 19:40

We're discussing a woman in women's sport, I'm not sure why you think I believe men should be in women's sport? You really are confused, bless

Transwomen are men dear.

RedDogsBeg · 31/07/2021 19:40

We're discussing a woman in women's sport, I'm not sure why you think I believe men should be in women's sport? You really are confused, bless.

Laurel Hubbard is a man, so you agree he should not be competing in women's sport. Good, excellent.

The patronising bless was a nice touch, lovely insight into your character and strength of argument.

Blibbyblobby · 31/07/2021 19:40

@erinaceus

I see.

The big that always gets me is … but chromosomes?

I always think that, that even if you had top surgery and bottom surgery, would you not feel wrong because every single cell in your body contains chromosomes that match the sex you were born as. Do trans people not feel a sort of cellular level dysphoria? (I have not asked a trans person this.) (I studied biochemistry…I don’t think cells are unconsciously biased, nor do I think that classification based on chromosomes is some kind of manifestation of bigotry.)

There's a few things to unpack there.

Firstly - Do trans people not feel a sort of cellular level dysphoria?

If you mean Do trans people (or at least the small minority who have reassignment surgery), knowing that their body is just a cosmetic facsimile of the sex they want to be, continue to feel gender dysphoria? - I don't know. There are trans women on MN so it's possible someone will answer from their own experience. My guess is that even for those whom transitioning has "worked" there will be some residual dysphoria but it is lessened.

If you mean The body knows what sex it is meant to be so trans women will continually feel their cells telling them they are male? I don't think so, because (a) I don't believe the body does that, and (b) as far as the body knows it is and always has been male even after surgery. Surgery, hormones, none of it makes a male-pattern body into a female-pattern body. They just become a medically messed around with male-pattern body. So even if gender identity truly exists as an innate mental characteristic, the whole idea of trying to address an issue in gender identity by cosmetically changing the sex of the body seems more an exercise in sympathetic magic than any form of science or medicine.

Secondly - I don’t think cells are unconsciously biased, nor do I think that classification based on chromosomes is some kind of manifestation of bigotry.

I think the belief is that the sex of the body should be no more significant than the colour of the hair, but our culture has erroneously attached gender identity which (according to the ideology) is very real and important onto body sex and made it significant when it isn't. So the unconscious bias isn't the fact that chromosomes exist or that some people have penises and some have vaginas, it's that these aspects of people are especially significant. They believe the weight society has placed on sex is wrong, and actually sex should be ignored and gender respected.

Note I personally do not share any of these beliefs, I'm just explaining how they fit (or not) with the medical facts of sex.

But honestly, don't try to make sense of it in the assumption it all hangs together somehow. There are huge contradictions and unsupported assertions running right through it, starting from the very basic question that if gender is relevant and sex is not, how come magically all the things we originally split by sex, for example, sports, need to stay just how they are except split by gender instead?

RaindropsOnRosie · 31/07/2021 19:40

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

If the people who aren't good enough at their sport aren't getting or generating enough money for themselves, their team, etc then they shouldn't be there and perhaps should try something else.

You know nothing about weightlifting, as you said, and you know nothing about the Olympic values. It's about striving for excellence and talking part. This is why the athletes have to be amateurs. This is why you have athletes form everywhere competing with each other. Taking part!

I didn't say I know nothing about weightlifting or the Olympic values. Could you explain why you lied about me?
Jorriss · 31/07/2021 19:41

I don't hate women either. Which is why males shouldn't be playing in women's sport. Because it's dangerous/ cheating and unfair. To women.

RaindropsOnRosie · 31/07/2021 19:42

@RedDogsBeg

We're discussing a woman in women's sport, I'm not sure why you think I believe men should be in women's sport? You really are confused, bless.

Laurel Hubbard is a man, so you agree he should not be competing in women's sport. Good, excellent.

The patronising bless was a nice touch, lovely insight into your character and strength of argument.

Aw thank you! Laurel is a woman and she can compete in women's sport like every other woman. Good, excellent. Now if you could just stop making up little conversations with me in your head I would be less creeped out and concerned about you xx
Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/07/2021 19:42

@WomaninBoots

I think RaindropsOnRosie is attempting to derail a thread that is shedding light on what the general population of women think about males in women's sports.

Quick quick! Look at meeeeeee! Not at ALL THE WOMEN SAYING "NO".

I agree plus trying ti fill up the thread so it drops on the first page

Best to ignore!

Jorriss · 31/07/2021 19:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedDogsBeg · 31/07/2021 19:42

That includes the opinions of people like me who don't hate women.

Anyone that thinks that males should compete against women and take places in sport from women absolutely does hate women.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 31/07/2021 19:43

I don't follow her sport so I don't know how good she is at it, but if people think she's too good for it I guess that's her advantage. Clearly people are struggling to comprehend that the winner of a game is the one who is best at it- through luck or skill.

This is what you said. The sport is weightlifting which you don't follow.

As for the Olympic values, you just wouldn't be talking all that nonsense that you about athletes who shouldn't be there because they aren't generating money.

RaindropsOnRosie · 31/07/2021 19:44

@RedDogsBeg

Paralympians ARE olympians or are you dismissing their achievements at the elite level they compete at?

If it's all down to luck and skill in your mind and there are no advantages inherent in any particular body type then it follows by your logic that paralympians should compete against the able bodied because luck and skill.

I don't have legs so I don't know why you're pretending I'm ableist. But that was a really good attempt at whatever it was you were trying to do x
Jorriss · 31/07/2021 19:45

Meh, I'm going to ignore the mediocre males who are stomping over this thread trying to derail it. No point in wasting energy engaging with them.

RaindropsOnRosie · 31/07/2021 19:45

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

I don't follow her sport so I don't know how good she is at it, but if people think she's too good for it I guess that's her advantage. Clearly people are struggling to comprehend that the winner of a game is the one who is best at it- through luck or skill.

This is what you said. The sport is weightlifting which you don't follow.

As for the Olympic values, you just wouldn't be talking all that nonsense that you about athletes who shouldn't be there because they aren't generating money.

I didn't know she did weightlifting, that's not the same as not knowing about weightlifting.

Yeah that didn't really clear things up but ok x