To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

It must be a bit awful for people who suddenly lose their whole income stream (and I can believe that girls in that level of training won't necessarily have periods)

But, at puberty, they’ll androgenise as well. So it’s not just the absence of periods, breasts etc it’s the appearance of male musculature. Which is where Caster (XY DSD 5 alpha reductase deficiency) deflected critics who were questioning Caster’s sex by crying “racism” - ie lack of a “typical” female form, the irony being that there is not a single part of Caster’s body that is biologically female. There’re also often flagged in late teens when their performances spike - due to testosterone production at puberty - disproportionately to their female competitors.

So…

It’s OK for a transperson to feel erased, if someone doesn’t use their preferred pronouns.

But it’s not OK for women to feel erased when government, academic institutions, even businesses to replace the word “woman” with “person.” You’re no longer a pregnant woman, you’re just a pregnant person, a “menstruator” etc. Saying that a biological woman is simply a female is somehow incorrect and even transphobic.

Somehow it’s bigoted or hateful to point out any unfairness when it comes to “cis” women, but not when it comes to those who are trans/pan/Demi etc. Especially when those who are non-trans are falling over themselves to show how “woke” they are, not realising that they’re just closing the door on their own face.

Did I say it was? No. I'm talking about the reams of hate in here and in mainstream UK press. The UK does hate so well.

Ahh. Terf island eh? I think you'll find much of the UK does well in seeing through the bullshit. Facts matter.

Laurel Hubbard is not competing against other women.
Laurel Hubbard is not female.

Wow almost a landslide of YANBU. That’s rare. Add me to this list too.

OP is bang on. I couldn’t be bothered to read beyond the first few comments, but I agreed with all of them.

@littlbrowndog

Shouldn’t 🤦‍♀️

Hubbard shouldn’t have taken a woman’s place

I wondered

Hubbard is a cheat and its revolting that this is allowed to happen.

@Ihopeyourcakeisshit

I had no idea such a high percentage of trans women kept their male bits, why would you do that?

Easier to reframe it as a female penis. Not that I blame people for not wanting surgery. It's a big thing. But people can't just identify into women's spaces either when they quite clearly are male.

I always thought there should be a third category specifically for this.
Unfair to women who are missing out on the Olympics because of a biological male saying they are female going instead.

@Elys3

YANBU - what can we do to correct this unfairness? Is there a petition?

Yes! Please head over to the Petitions Board to sign

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

Wow, just so much ignorance and knee jerk nonsense in here. People, please educate yourselves before posting

😂 we did educate ourselves, that’s how we know how unfair and misogynistic it is. Maybe you should get your education from somewhere other than Twitter?

It's very understandable why someone wouldn't want massive amounts of painful, major surgery that sterilises them. But the very nature of a choice means you can't have everything. If you choose not to have the surgery, some paths cannot be open to you.

Female athletes need to choose between having a baby and compromising their athletic prowess. Women are expected to make choices based on their biological reality.

@ScrollingLeaves, brilliant list. Thanks for compiling it. There needs to be an Olympic event for Petulant Non Achieving Male Athletes Who Want a Medal doesn’t there..

Just an update for you CC Telpher ( transgender hurdler) failed to qualify for the Olympics . Their testosterone level was too high.

YANBU... It's disgusting what's happening, it makes a total mockery of women's and girls' sports. Shame on any women who think it's okay to allow males into women's sports AT ANY LEVEL. It's unjust and senseless, and in some sports can even be dangerous for women and girls.

What? Difficult to converse with madness. Calm down, read up - take a deep breath and then post. All this melodrama will not help your cause.

If you want change, be very purposeful about it rather than wallowing in spite and self pity.

And there it is. Doesn't take long for the mask to slip does it?

Wow, just so much ignorance and knee jerk nonsense in here. People, please educate yourselves before posting.

Lol. And that's all you have to say? Lots of evidence and facts posted here by intelligent and educated women. And all you have to contribute is this? Really? I'm surprised you didn't throw in bigot / transphobe and hate from the buzzword list.

I suggest you take your own advice and start educating yourself. ☺️

It’s also worth setting Hubbard’s inclusion in the context of the history of women’s inclusion in the Olympics.

2012 was the first Olympics at which women were able to compete in all the events, and the first Olympics where all of the countries involved sent female athletes (prior to this, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Brunei refused to send women).

2012. Not even ten years ago. We were almost there. Still issues around funding, and access, and oddities around 3 versus 5 sets in tennis, heptathlon versus decathlon, etc, but just about getting there in terms of showcasing and valuing women’s sports.

And now women are being pushed down again.

Probably needs to be a bit more nuanced that a straight 10% for all sorts and all athletes (and obviously 10% hit for trans women and 10% gain for trans men) - but yes I think this is a lot fairer than the current situation

Why do we need entertain the idea at all? Compete in the class for your biological sex. They want to compete in the women's category because they identify as a 'woman'. But the the women's and mens categories are referred to as such because those words used to be synonymous with the words for the sex classes - male and female. Stick with male and female. Woman/man is meaningless now.

If you are not good enough to compete in the class for your sex, tough. That doesn't mean trans people are 'banned' from sport (which is the hyperbolic argument when female people object to males participating in their events). Trans people can participate in sport just like anyone else. But they don't have a right to be successful if they take part in competitive sports. No one has that right. You compete in your sex class and how far you get in that sport will be based on your ability.

Female penis..wtf?
I think I'm out of my depth here, I have no idea what pan and demi are either.

Remember when 50ShadesOfCatholic told us to educate ourselves before posting upthread? I went and educated myself about the sum of their contributions to this thread. Guess what I found? :

Difficult to converse with madness wallowing in spite and self pity
Nope, you're talking out of your arse
Tbh most places are more positive than the UK, it is internationally known as the hub of whining .
Wow, just so much ignorance and knee jerk nonsense in here. People, please educate yourselves before posting
the reams of hate in here and in mainstream UK press. The UK does hate so well

Not a single fact, rational contribution or attempt to engage. Just abuse and contempt. It never differs. No arguments, no facts, no debate - just abuse and attempts to silence.

What TeacupsandToast said - one of the commentators was getting slated for referring to a transgender competitor as "she" when that wasn't their pronoun of choice. They're competing in the WOMEN'S event, the commentator wasn't the one at fault

I think its called cheating.

There is quite an interesting interview on Woman’s Hour (23 June) with a scientist whose work was used by the Olympics Committee when they made their decision to include Laurel in the women’s event. To sum it up: they made a hasty decision to let this happen despite the fact that more evidence needed to show this would be fair.

Why do we need entertain the idea at all? Compete in the class for your biological sex.

This. Sick of being expected to move over for men.

@DrSbaitso

It's very understandable why someone wouldn't want massive amounts of painful, major surgery that sterilises them. But the very nature of a choice means you can't have everything. If you choose not to have the surgery, some paths cannot be open to you.

Female athletes need to choose between having a baby and compromising their athletic prowess. Women are expected to make choices based on their biological reality.

Very true. Women spend their whole lives making choices and sacrifices based on their biological reality. That's just life.

Transwomen want to have their cake and eat it too and the push is now more and more for self-ID being sufficient to get what they want.

We're on the slipperiest of slopes right now.