To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

@Shoxfordian

What do you think the best solution is for transgender athletes? They should compete with the gender they’re born into? Not be allowed at all? It seems unfair to say Laurel can’t compete. Maybe there needs to be extra categories

Laurel did compete though, in her sex class in the 1990s. She wasn’t good enough to make the Olympics then. I wonder what’s changed to enable her to become Olympic standard now she’s at an age when most athletes would have long since retired. 🤔 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard

I can't vote on the app but I definitely do not agree with LH competing against natal women at all.

@Ihopeyourcakeisshit

I had no idea such a high percentage of trans women kept their male bits, why would you do that?

We’re not allowed to say without getting deleted well not in FWR anyway but Google what Dr Blanchard is talking about here

twitter.com/blanchardphd/status/1421108236887990278?s=21

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Hubbard won’t win - they’re 20 years older than their competitors & not that good. I’m some ways that’s the problem. They’ll probably come 4th/5th and then the cry will go up “seeeee???? Men clearly have no advantage!! You were just being meeeaaan”

Allowing younger fitter TW to be accommodated in Paris 24

And they will fail to see that being there in the first place, despite being 43 and not having reached international level in the previous 14 years of competing in the men's tournaments, demonstrates the unfairness whether Hubbard wins or not.

I didn't compile the list! But yes, its very powerful and deserves to be shared - its shameful and unfair that this is happening to women.

Some people who are fighting against this include: Beth Stelzer the founder of Save Women's Sports. Martina Navratilova, Coach Linda Blade, Fair play for Women, Sharron Davies and Daley Thompson, Tanni Grey Thompson and scientists Ross Tucker and Emma Hilton.

@OldTurtleNewShell

Interestingly, there is nowhere near the level of hate directed at Laurel in New Zealand as there is in the UK

Women wanting women's sports to be fair for women isn't 'hate'. Anyone thinking it is needs to take a long hard look at their attitudes to women.

Did I say it was? No. I'm talking about the reams of hate in here and in mainstream UK press. The UK does hate so well.

People shouting about hatred and bigotry know that thats bollocks. It's all about using emotive language to discredit someone and prevent people from actually looking into something for fear of being tarnished. Might work for a simple few at this point, but that shits been watered down more than the last splash of ribena on a hot summer day in a house with 6 kids. Meaningless.

Just shut up.

For this to be accepted and fair, there should at least be some sort handicapping system in place to account for basic biological differences.

This would at least allow women to not be at a disadvantage against trans women in their chosen sport, and also allow trans men to compete in the men's category which they otherwise would typically not be able to qualify for due to their own biological disadvantage.

The UK does hate so well?

One could then say NZ cheats and is proud of it.

@theeyeballsinthesky thanks for that.

@GromblesofGrimbledon: That's why I said a bit U - on here, they're unlikely to get torn apart though may be relegated to the naughty corner. Used for twitter fodder, absolutely, that tends to be my first thought with posts like this.

The Samoans probably have it more right than us with acceptance of Fa'afafine in mainstream society.

I agree, acceptance of Fa'afafine in Samoan society and Fa'afafine athletes in the men's competition probably have it more right (all of the Fa'afafine athletes I know compete that way).

@nolongersurprised

When women have “naturally high testosterone levels” those levels might be in the 3-5 range at the extreme due to disease such as PCOS

And these women are likely to be unwell, not elite athletes.

The ruling also states that DSD athletes who are XX don’t need to alter their testosterone levels. No one will ever hear about these athletes.

So any time the media is talking about “female” athletes who who have been required to lower their “naturally high” testosterone they must be XY with high testosterone from testes and be sensitive to androgens (have gone through a male puberty)

Thank you for explaining this in far more detail than I've seen before.

I guess there needs to be more awareness that people with this condition won't be allowed to compete at those distances in the women's categories, so people who think there's any chance this could apply to them don't waste years of their lives training. It must be a bit awful for people who suddenly lose their whole income stream (and I can believe that girls in that level of training won't necessarily have periods). The coaches have a responsibility towards those athletes, rather than trying to sneak them through.

Did I say it was? No. I'm talking about the reams of hate in here and in mainstream UK press. The UK does hate so well.

You mean like the kind of hate that dismisses women's science-based, and completely fucking obvious, objections to male people in their sports as merely "spiteful"?

@Taliskerskye

if your are mtf to have to have certain rules in place before you can compete with women

If you are ftm then you can compete with men, no restrictions at all.

What does that say

That it’s clear that biologically male athletes do have an unfair advantage over the female athletes that they’re going to be competing against?

@Bryonyshcmyony

Interestingly, there is nowhere near the level of hate directed at Laurel in New Zealand as there is in the UK

Well of course there isn't. It means they might get a medal.

Nope, you're talking out of your arse. New Zealanders don't select the Olympic team. Why would you imagine they do?

The culture in NZ is a lot more positive than in the UK. Tbh most places are more positive than the UK, it is internationally known as the hub of whining.

Of course the Hubbard situation has drawn headlines, but ultimately Hubbard is playing within the rules. NZ did not make the Olympic rules.

Wow, just so much ignorance and knee jerk nonsense in here. People, please educate yourselves before posting.

Apart from Caitlin Jenner are there many other transwomen speaking out?

The culture in NZ is a lot more positive than in the UK

Not for women it isn't.

Janice Turner was probably being conservative when she stated that 80% of transwomen retain their male bits, the GIRES charity quoted a figure recently of 95% of transwomen having full male genitalia.

@DrSbaitso

Did I say it was? No. I'm talking about the reams of hate in here and in mainstream UK press. The UK does hate so well.

You mean like the kind of hate that dismisses women's science-based, and completely fucking obvious, objections to male people in their sports as merely "spiteful"?

What? Difficult to converse with madness. Calm down, read up - take a deep breath and then post. All this melodrama will not help your cause.

I am neither for or against Hubbard. I am posting according to what I have observed in NZ and the UK.

If you want change, be very purposeful about it rather than wallowing in spite and self pity.

Hubbard should have taken a woman’s place

Now when I am watching the women at the Olympic Games I start to wonder who are the women and who are the men

For some reason I don’t wonder that when watching the men competing

Wonder why

I suggest you remove the word 'other' from the thread title to make it more accurate. Yes, it's bonkers, those poor women who train hard in sports only to be eclipsed by the biological advantages of someone who would fail if entered into their biologically correct category. It's horrifying when you think about it.

please educate yourselves before posting.

So, presumably you have "educated yourself" and think it is perfectly reasonable for a biological man to compete against biological females and that they have no advantage due to their biological sex at all.

@Adirondack

Yanbu. And it’s gpod that you posted in Aibu as more women need to know that this kind of thing is going on. Threads like these should be brought into the light not just hidden away on a specialist board.

Agreed. This shouldn't be shuffled off to another board that isn't as seen as this. It's worthy as a mainstream discussion.

I agree OP. Sports should be categorised by biology.

Shouldn’t 🤦‍♀️

Hubbard shouldn’t have taken a woman’s place

@NotBadConsidering

Can you explain this for an idiot, how were they biologically male?

All three medalists in the women’s 800m final in Rio have XY chromosomes, testes, have been through male puberty, have male pelvic structure, have male lung capacity, cardiac output, bone density have no uterus and never had a pesky period to mess with their physiology, training or competing.

You know, male.

They all have conditions that meant this wasn’t obvious when they were growing up. In Semenya’s case it became evident at the age of 18 or so. Despite it becoming evident, Semenya (and the others) was allowed to continue to compete against women, winning medals, prize money, sponsorship and deprived women of these things.

When women have “naturally high testosterone levels” those levels might be in the 3-5 range at the extreme due to disease such as PCOS. When it’s higher than that, it’s because of the single best way of having high testosterone - a pair of testicles.

I don't have words for this, so it's pointless for a women to ever try and compete in the 800m.