To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

For anyone left who doesn't think the differences between men and women in sport are huge, it's worth taking a look at this. It's quite an eye opener.

boysvswomen.com/

In Janice Turner's article today in The Times, she points out that up until 2015 transwomen had to be 'post op' to compete in the Olympics, but LGBT activists argued this was unfair because 80 per cent of transwomen retain their male genitalia.

Can someone please explain why having male genitalia isn't triggering for people like Hubbard, but competing with other male-bodied people would be?

I have not read the full thread, but has anyone linked a new book written by an American academic I think, clearly showing that biological men will always have a physical advantage over biological women even after those men have had hormone therapy?

I think it was mentioned on a feminist board here a few months ago.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Err no. I just don’t want anyone with a post-pubertal Male biology competing against a woman or crashing into my DD on a rugby pitch or punching a female’s head in a boxing ring or any other sport where physical strength, speed and physiology gives a male advantage

In the case of mouncy, they were allowed to play afl but quit the team because the women in the team.didnt want to share the changing room amd showers.

It was the women’s handball team that were uncomfortable showering with Mouncey, not the AFL team. To Mouncey, this was a sign of bigotry, as if there can’t be any other reason women would be uncomfortable with a naked male in the showers…

@BiBabbles

YANBU to think LH shouldn't be competing in the women's lifting, a bit U to think you'd get torn apart here. This ain't twitter.

Maybe the OP has frequented the naughty corner of Mumsnet enough to know that, even when women do stay in their little segregated zone to discuss these issues, they still get torn apart by visitors from Twitter who are salivating at the chance to call us bigots.

Maybe the OP thought that opening the debate up to an even wider audience of people who may not normally follow these issues was asking for her to get torn apart.

I guarantee you there are people taking screenshots of what we're all saying now to plaster across Twitter and call us hateful bigots.

@yourestandingonmyneck

Is there anybody here who thinks that this should be allowed?

I have never come across anybody who agrees with it and I would be interested to hear their argument. I can't for the life of me think of a single convincing argument for it.

Some of my female friends agree with it. They seem to argue that it's just tough for natal women who lose as a result, and the feelings of TW are more important. I felt like I was in the Ann Widdecombe category for daring to suggest that TW would have an unfair advantage based on skeletal development, hormones etc.

The irony is that I would never want TW to be treated badly or discriminated against but you can't destroy hard won women's rights to improve things for TW. The only answer seems to be to have a separate category of events for trans people.

The thing that stands out (apart from the obvious) is that Laurel Hubbard is 43 years old.

I feel sorry for those Samoan women. They will look back on their youth as 'things that could have been' like so many women before them

People who don't like sport, and women, and women's sport agree with it.

Or citizens of countries who are set to gain from it.

@NashvilleQueen

I hope she wins gold. I hope she smashes every record going for women. Lifts twice as much as the next closest.

Then the world can see what an absolute travesty it is for women's sport.

I must admit this thought crossed my mind, in a taking one for the team/cause, think about the bigger picture type of thing.

Its fucking shit she has a man's physiology. When will this stupidity end?

Agreed - do take a look at the Fair Play for Women website' OP (and anyone else who wants to get a bit more info on this before making up their mind). And then start frequenting the Feminist boards which seems to be the only place in the world you're allowed to talk about this really important issue without being told you're transphobic.

The Samoans probably have it more right than us with acceptance of Faʻafafine in mainstream society.

People also that that yes, this is difficult and there may be some conflicts in allowing transwomen to compete in women's events, but it is important to be 'inclusive'. Funny how it's only mediocre males who get included.

I am crap at all sports. But I'd reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally like to represent my country at the Olympics. It's not fair that a tiny minority of elite athletes get to enjoy the fun of the Olympics every four years. Who reading wouldn't want to get a trip to an interesting city and a nice tracksuit? If we are allocating places on Olympic teams on a basis of inclusivity, shouldn't Olympic teams be decided by a raffle? CPAO!!! (Couch Potatoes Are Olympians!)

I bet they won't win. A nice silver would be fine for her and evidence for the s that support them

It's utter madness and totally unfair.

“Helmetbymidnight

2012: Stephanie Barrett has sex reassignment surgery
2016: Barrett takes up archery
2018-21: Barrett wins gold at the Canadian Championships, breaks the Canadian women's archery score and qualifies for the Tokyo Olympics in the women's individual recurve
thestar.com/.../olympic-archer-stephanie-barrett
...
2017: CeCe Telfer is ranked 390th among male NCAA Division II athletes in the 400m hurdles category
2018: Telfer 'transitions'
2019: Telfer is national NCAA Division II women's 400m hurdle champion
2021: Telfer hopes to qualify for the US Olympics
1998-2012: Laurel Hubbard fails to qualify for a single international men's tournament as a professional weightlifter
2013: Hubbard 'transitions' (aged 35)
2014-21: Hubbard qualifies for 11 international women's tournaments, including the Olympics
2013-15: Hannah Mouncey made 22 appearances for the Australian men's handball team, scoring 0 goals
2015: Mouncey 'transitions'
2018: Amid controversy, Mouncey is allowed to play 6 times for the Australian women's handball team, scoring 23 goals
Pre 2015: Golfer Hailey Davidson won 0 men's tournaments (in fact it doesn't look like Davidson even qualified for any tournaments)
2015: Davidson 'transitions'
2021: Davidson becomes the first male to win a women's professional golf tournament
2019: Mary Gregory, who had 'transitioned' as an adult, took up professional women's weightlifting and, at Gregory's first tournament, won all nine events at the 100% Raw Weightlifting Federation competition, breaking four world records in the process
Pre 2006: Fallon Fox served in the US Navy
2006: Fox 'transitions'
2012-14: Fox becomes an MMA fighter, winning all but one fights; in one fight fracturing a woman's skull
2011: Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy 'transitions' (aged 29)
2012-18: McKinnon / Ivy takes up professional women's cycling and wins the UCI Women’s Masters Track World Championship for the women's 35–44 age bracket
After 'transitioning' as a teenager, Maxine Blythin played cricket for both a men’s cricket team where Blythin had a batting average of 15, and the Kent women's cricket team, where Blythin had an average of 124 and was named women's cricketer of the year
'Before transitioning and competing in the women’s events, Kenzie Statz didn’t fare well in the men’s competitions. But [now] the transgender cyclist finishes more than 10 minutes ahead of the next closest competitor.'
Pre 2017: Tiffany Abreu is a volleyball player in Brazil's men's Superliga A & B divisions
2017: Abreu 'transitions'
2018: Abreu breaks Brazil's women's Superliga’s single game scoring record against a team that contained three Olympic gold medalists
Pre 2018: Valentina Petrillo wins 11 Italian men's Paralympic titles in a career that's coming to an end
2018: Petrillo 'transitions' (aged 44)
2020: Petrillo wins 3 gold medals at the women's Italian Paralympic Athletics Championships in just 24 hours
Gabrielle Ludwig 'transitioned' to a woman aged 50, in 2012, and immediately joined Mission College women's basketball team. Ludwig, who is 6 foot 8, 'led the team in scoring with 17 points a game and led the state in rebounding with 18 a game'
eu.usatoday.com/.../college-basketball.../1744703/
2014: Chelsea Wolfe 'transitions' and, the same year, takes up BMX cycling
2017: Wolfe switches to BMX Freestyle after discovering it's an Olympics event
2021: Wolfe is set to be one of the three Team USA BMX Freestyle women to qualify for the Olympics
2018: Sprinter Terry Miller 'now identifies as female'
2019: Miller wins the girls' 55 metre dash at the Connecticut Open Indoor Track Championships, breaking the girls' state indoor record. Second place goes to Andraya Yearwood, who also 'transitioned'
Up until 2012: Jillian Bearden is an elite men's cyclist but didn't quite make it to a professional standard
2014: Bearden transitions (aged 34)
2016: Bearden wins the Arizona El Tour de Tucson and becomes a professional peloton cyclist the following year
2007: Amelia Gapin took up running but failed to qualify for any major events
2012: Gapin 'transitions'
2016: Gapin is given a women's slot at the Boston Marathon
Michelle Dumaresq took up professional downhill mountain biking five years after 'transitioning'. Dumaresq went on to win the Canadian National Championships two years in a row
2012: Savannah Burton plays for Canada's men's dodgeball team, but it doesn't work out and Burton quits dodgeball
2013: Burton 'transitions'
2015-17: Burton returns to dodgeball and plays for Canada's women's team at two successive world championships
Athena Del Rosario 'transitioned' and became a women's NCAA football goalkeeper. Del Rosario has now taken up beach handball and hopes to qualify for the 2024 Olympics
Natalie Van Gogh 'transitioned' in 2005 and took up cycling. Van Gogh has now been a professional women's cyclist for nearly a decade, winning at least two major events in that time
Jessica Platt 'lived for' ice hockey but failed to make it professionally and quit the sport for seven years. During that time, Platt 'transitioned'. Since then, Platt has returned to the sport, making it as a professional for two Canadian women's teams
2020: Mara Gómez, who had recently 'transitioned', 'signs a contract with Villa San Carlos in the recently professionalised women’s Primera División, after years of journeying through the amateur leagues'
In 2009, Chris Bruce 'transitioned' and was competing in women's bodybuilding events by 2011 - 20 years after competing in men's bodybuilding events
Juniper Simonis played competitive sports before 'transitioning', to no apparent success. Since then Simonis has won the Women's Roller Derby World Championship four times
wftda.org/featured-skater/juniper-simonis
Caroline Layt played men's rugby league before 'transitioning' aged 30. Layt then took up women's rugby and was a finalist for 'women's player of the year'
1998: Parinya Charoenphol takes up kickboxing, winning one fight
1999: Charoenphol 'transitions'
2006: Charoenphol is allowed to compete in women's kickboxing, and goes on to win 20 fights, 18 by knockout
2000: Lauren Jeska 'transitions' and takes up fell-running
2010-12 Jeska wins numerous women's events including the 2012 British Fell Running Championships
2017: Jeska is jailed for the attempted murder of a coach who asked to see Jeska's hormone levels
JayCee Cooper was a men's competitive curler and rower, who 'transitioned' before 2019 and took up powerlifting. In 2019 Cooper became the USPA Minnesota Women's State Champion while setting the women's bench press record
Up until 2020: Kate Weatherly competes in the New Zealand men's downhill mountain bike open division (the grade below elite) but fails to win any events
2020: Weatherly 'transitions'
2021: Weatherly wins the New Zealand elite women's national championship.”

@Helmetbymidnight
Thank you so much for compiling this list, which is just brilliant.

YANBU
There's a reason women don't compete against men. The men have an advantage over women especially in weightlifting!
I feel for the all the women in the Olympics & all their hard work to get there to be competing against biological men is unfair.

No one's posted a screenshot for a while, so here's an update for those on the app and unable to see the voting.

I had no idea such a high percentage of trans women kept their male bits, why would you do that?

I bet there won’t be TV coverage - the optics will be too awful for the BBC, who took SEVEN months to acknowledge their biased and irresponsible reporting of the Keira Bell verdict.

Can’t risk to general public noticing this travesty, can we?

Hubbard won’t win - they’re 20 years older than their competitors & not that good. I’m some ways that’s the problem. They’ll probably come 4th/5th and then the cry will go up “seeeee???? Men clearly have no advantage!! You were just being meeeaaan”

Allowing younger fitter TW to be accommodated in Paris 24

If this thread gets zapped I will be uncharacteristically angry

1998-2012: Laurel Hubbard fails to qualify for a single international men's tournament as a professional weightlifter

2013: Hubbard 'transitions' (aged 35)

2014-21: Hubbard qualifies for 11 international women's tournaments, including the Olympics

Sickening.

@NeedNewKnees

I bet there won’t be TV coverage - the optics will be too awful for the BBC, who took SEVEN months to acknowledge their biased and irresponsible reporting of the Keira Bell verdict.

Can’t risk to general public noticing this travesty, can we?

It will be on discovery plus.