To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

i think the others should strike and not compete
I see your point but I don't think it's as easy as that. Pretty sure there's pretty hefty penalities if women did this.

It’s a thing nowadays to call rational intelligence ‘hate’. So so weird.

I would feel embarrassed to win under those circumstance.
Bit like me triumphantly stating I’d won over an 8 year old.

Well I guess if people can change the meaning of hate to mean anything they disagree with, then no doubt women can then be prosecuted under hate speech legislation. Changing of the meaning of language is important here. I have no doubt there is an end goal here to shut women up once and for all.

What's the betting the BBC chooses not to cover this event, despite covering weightlifting all last week?

Bloody hell, Helmet, I’ve seen the achievements of most of the people on that list separately, but seeing it all together like that is almost overwhelming.

Pretty sure there's pretty hefty penalities if women did this

Yes , selina soule ( for those who don't know she's a track athlete in conneticut) reports being "hazed" by her coach after speaking out about having to compete with biological males , 2 In fact leaving the girls all competing for 3rd place.

I very much doubt the BBC will cover it.

Who'd want to commentate on it?

Maybe the people who are voting YABU are the ambitious mothers of mediocre boys who see that there could actually be a way to experience that reflected glory they've craved. They just need to get their son to compete in the girls events.

It’s not as if Hubbard was say thete quietly minding their own business and all of a sudden out of nowhere they were told they could compete

This. Hubbard comes from a family of men of great wealth, privilege and power. This has been used by men, with and against in the massive majority other men, in order to to quite intentionally gain benefits and privileges for males at the expense of females.

Female people, as demonstrated on this thread, are not only supposed to accept this superiority of those born male by handing over their own right to be considered a group equally human, allowed equal ambition and status to males, to be something other than support humans to males - they are actually told they are guilty of 'hate' for not celebrating it, and celebrating the male people directly pushing for and benefitting from it.

Females are not all masochists.

Excellent post @helmetbymidnight

I've seen it listed out before, but always good to see it there in black and white.

Males doing between not very impressive to absolute shite at sport. Males transition, and just like magic take women's achievements, women's records, women's spaces in women's teams and women's sports, for themselves.

Male entitlement in action.

Letting this male compete against women is an embarrassing, disgusting travesty.

@justaftb

Maybe the people who are voting YABU are the ambitious mothers of mediocre boys who see that there could actually be a way to experience that reflected glory they've craved. They just need to get their son to compete in the girls events.

There's usually an alternative motive when people refuse to recognise reality that's for sure.

YANBU to think LH shouldn't be competing in the women's lifting, a bit U to think you'd get torn apart here. This ain't twitter.

What do you think the best solution is for transgender athletes? They should compete with the gender they’re born into? Not be allowed at all? It seems unfair to say Laurel can’t compete. Maybe there needs to be extra categories

Compete with their sex, there are trans women who already do this.

Compete in sports that are openly mixed sex: part of picking a sport is it fitting our bodies, and this should include this situation. There 18 "mixed gender" sports at this Olympics. Some have long been that way, some are more recent addition (there is a doubling of them from what I've read). Some are still divided by sex (so Judo, I think each team has 3 men and 3 women) so it may also be playing in their sex or entirely mixed sex depending on the sport. It'll be potentially interesting to see how the results of these sports play out.

Competing in "untested" competitions (which the Olympics is not). There is an argument to allow doping as separate from 'clean'/'tested' competition, which could work well for trans men.

Powerlifting is an interesting one - to me - where it's largely kept itself single sex, but in many places has a 'tested' and 'untested' contests which otherwise have the same rules, but are judged separately. This to me is a very interesting concept and there is a lot written about it, way better than I can do, but I think the most important part of it is that all competitors still know what they're getting in for, and there are options. It would be for individual sports to decide how trans women would fit in this (as I said, powerlifting - even with 'untested' competitions - has in all federations I'm aware of remained single sex to the point of removing awards and records from trans women who competed in women's lifting at local levels).

The 'best solution' is not to change single sex to mixed sex. I've competed mixed sex (wrestling - so very much contact), and it takes a very different training strategy, it has higher risks that need to be managed, and it's something I think is great to have available where those precautions can be taken, but they need to be bloody open about it and single sex competition should remain the standard, especially where it's saying "women's". I actually don't know athletes who've been in the position I was in who think single sex should be removed by 'stealth'/fucking with the rules or that mixed sex should be the standard in most sports. An option, sure, but no fucking way 'women's' lifting should be mixed sex.

It IS overwhelming isn't it.

the whole ideology infuriates me and I can't understand why people I formerly respected have been so taken in by an unscientific belief system that is so destructive to women.

BTW I didn't compile the list - Its a cut and paste from FB!

What I object to is that by stating the belief that someone such as Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against women in the Olympics, we are automatically assumed to hate trans people and want to stop them participating in any sport. So we want to stop young kids who identify as the opposite sex or identify as non-binary from doing PE at school or having fun in amateur team sports? We’re literally snatching away the ball from a poor child somewhere and are hateful nasty people? Shame on us.

Err no. I just don’t want anyone with a post-pubertal Male biology competing against a woman or crashing into my DD on a rugby pitch or punching a female’s head in a boxing ring or any other sport where physical strength, speed and physiology gives a male advantage.

I don’t understand how most decent Transmen and Transwomen or non-binary people can honestly argue against this. Where are they? Why aren’t they speaking out? Do they just think that speaking out about this is people being transphobic? Can they not see the injustice? They are doing themselves a great disservice by sticking their fingers in their ears about this. Or worse by being disingenuous about this and shouting ‘transphobe’ at any issue that doesn’t prioritise the trans issue when it comes to women’s rights.

Interestingly, there is nowhere near the level of hate directed at Laurel in New Zealand as there is in the UK

Women wanting women's sports to be fair for women isn't 'hate'. Anyone thinking it is needs to take a long hard look at their attitudes to women.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Pretty sure there's pretty hefty penalities if women did this

Yes , selina soule ( for those who don't know she's a track athlete in conneticut) reports being "hazed" by her coach after speaking out about having to compete with biological males , 2 In fact leaving the girls all competing for 3rd place.

There is a reason why it's almost entirely retired athletes who are speaking out about it.

I know the odd active female athlete has supported male people in women's sports but it's telling that the overwhelming, almost entire majority is silent. They certainly won't get any official or practical penalty for supporting the current rules, and it's a hot topic, so why aren't they saying anything?

Helmetbymidnight's post shows how ridiculous the issue is. Also, the following website has some fascinating stats and graphics showing the results of boys (high school level) vs Women olympic athletes. It's sobering.

But TRAs in the past have just stated that women just don't try hard enough. The idea of telling Serena Williams that she just doesn't try hard enough. She has played demostration matches against men, and lost to the 203rd ranked male player at the time.

Imagine telling Simone Biles, Paula Radcliffe, Cathy Freeman, that they just don't try hard enough

boysvswomen.com/#/

Err no. I just don’t want anyone with a post-pubertal Male biology competing against a woman or crashing into my DD on a rugby pitch or punching a female’s head in a boxing ring or any other sport where physical strength, speed and physiology gives a male advantage

In the case of mouncy, they were allowed to play afl but quit the team because the women in the team.didnt want to share the changing room amd showers.

I think the new mixed relay races are great as they really show the vast advantage that makes have over women. Look at how quickly Adam Peaty made up ground on the female swimmers who were, at one point, at least 25m ahead of him. There is nothing you could do, bar probably tying one arm behind his back, to mitigate for that kind of advantage.

The “Michael Phelps argument” (that his physical advantage over other males is the same as male advantage over females) annoys the hell out of me too.

Was there really not much objection to this in New Zealand? I just find it all so bizarre.