To think Laurel Hubbard should not be competing against other women

[Belle82]

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

I have no problem with the transgender community, that is your life/body and I am not one to judge anyone else, do what makes you happy.

There is something fundamentally wrong about a person who is biologically a man competing against a woman in sport as significant as weightlifting.
I am not taking anything away from women weightlifters, however when competing in that sport, a person who was born a man will always have an unfair advantage over a woman.

I am all for equal rights but it seems political correctness has now put us in a position that we will only consider the equal rights of those in the transgender community. What happens to the equal rights of all the other women who have worked extremely hard to get to the olympics who should be competing against biological women.

There needs to be clearer cut criteria on entrance requirements to every sport, to give every person the equal rights they deserve.

My heart goes out to all the other women competing who I’m sure must be somewhat disheartened about their chances of success now they are competing against a biological man.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/29/ioc-praises-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-ahead-of-transgender-athletes-olympic-debut

@Shoxfordian

What do you think the best solution is for transgender athletes? They should compete with the gender they’re born into? Not be allowed at all? It seems unfair to say Laurel can’t compete. Maybe there needs to be extra categories

Transgender athletes eh? Tell them they can only compete in their sex class or an open or trans category (so against other trans women) and watch how many suddenly decide sports wasn't that important to them after all. (Or being trans for that matter.) I'd bet folding money that more than half would just fade away quietly. This is about cheating not a love of sport.

Interestingly, there is nowhere near the level of hate directed at Laurel in New Zealand as there is in the UK

Interesting that you see women saying a biological male has an unfair advantage competing with biological women, as 'hate'.

It's a fact. Is stating a fact now 'hate'?

@OneTC

she is playing by the rules

Rules they campaigned for and influenced the development of

That's what I can't understand, who the fuck wants to win because it was unfair? Laurel obviously does and has gone to great lengths to have the chance

Quite! It’s not as if Hubbard was say thete quietly minding their own business and all of a sudden out of nowhere they were told they could compete

Hubbards father is extremely influential in New Zealand and has pushed hard for it to happen

Literally no one was campaigning for men to be in women’s sports until a few years ago and my word how they have campaigned since then!!

Can you explain this for an idiot, how were they biologically male?

They have XY chromosomes.

YANBU. I am sitting here wondering how Jacinda Arden must be feeling. In private, I hope she has her head in her hands, and a very large gin. Publicly she might be quiet, but I hope she finds some inner strength to speak up.

Hubbards father is extremely influential in New Zealand and has pushed hard for it to happen

Yep

Everyone voting YANBU should be joining in the campaign to stop this madness. Don't sit back and just watch it happen.

And frankly I feel so strongly about this subject not being hidden away in the Feminist boards that should it get moved, that'll be my 15 year relationship with MN over.

What really fucks me off is that previously female sports people have been subjected to invasive and degrading physical examinations to make sure they actually are women and now people who are known to be biologically male are being welcomed in.

I can't help feeling amused by the TWAW camp, DC's of posters on this thread quickly running out of steam when asked just a few simple questions, the poster who came on here, shouted 'bigots' and disappeared because that's all the 'argument' consists of - name calling and denial. Nothing with any foundation, no concrete facts to demonstrate their point that TWAW.

They aren't. Never have been. Never will be.

You can call yourself what you will. It doesn't make it fact.

LH has no morals. They'd get nowhere competing against their own biological sex and have resorted to cheating. And in cheating, at the cost of their inclusivity, they exclude biological women who have worked hard to get to this level. Women 'kicked to the kerb' to accommodate men.

And women are labelled bigots. Really?

There’s an art competition at my local supermarket. I’m going to enter the under 5 category. I’m channeling my inner child. Anybody who disagrees is a hater.

In the usual way. XY chromosomes, SYR gene, testicles, testosterone, no disorder that would prevent their body in using that testosterone to full effect.

They did however also have a disorder that had prevented their penis and other sexual organs developing normally so at birth had been assumed to be female.

In most countries their DSD would have been diagnosed at puberty and their testicles would likely have been removed to reduce the risk of testicular cancer (although not necessarily).

I just don't really understand a women / men or female / male divide at all. If Laurel is allowed to compete with women, why not other 40 something men? It just makes a joke of the categories at all.

Why not just open categories for all?

Of course this will mean there will be no meaningful womens sport, but that's what's eventually going to happen anyway if this continues.

One aspect that puzzles me is that a transwoman who won would win knowing that they have a physiological advantage, surely that would not feel good in terms of sense of achievement(?) Or are transwomen in such a situation authentically unaware of the advantage they have, or do not believe that they have such an advantage.

@GromblesofGrimbledon

Everyone voting YANBU should be joining in the campaign to stop this madness. Don't sit back and just watch it happen.

Yes they really should. Women need to stand together and push back.

Can you explain this for an idiot, how were they biologically male?

All three medalists in the women’s 800m final in Rio have XY chromosomes, testes, have been through male puberty, have male pelvic structure, have male lung capacity, cardiac output, bone density have no uterus and never had a pesky period to mess with their physiology, training or competing.

You know, male.

They all have conditions that meant this wasn’t obvious when they were growing up. In Semenya’s case it became evident at the age of 18 or so. Despite it becoming evident, Semenya (and the others) was allowed to continue to compete against women, winning medals, prize money, sponsorship and deprived women of these things.

When women have “naturally high testosterone levels” those levels might be in the 3-5 range at the extreme due to disease such as PCOS. When it’s higher than that, it’s because of the single best way of having high testosterone - a pair of testicles.

I know I am going to get ripped apart for this.

Really interesting to see this is the OP's very first sentence. The assumption that her opinion is in the minority and that most of the replies she'll receive will be negative ones.

Almost all positive and with a 98% YANBU rating shows otherwise!

But there doesn't seem to be any suggestion that any of these DSD athletes are male, but rather what would previously have been referred to as intersex.

The reason intersex is no longer used is that it is an (offensive) misnomer. DSDs occur in either female or male bodies - there is no "between" sex. The reason we know these athletes are male is that the restrictions applied to them only apply to a specific DSD of males.

Anyone who thinks this is 'fair' needs their head read. Hubbard is just a symptom. He is allowed by the rules to compete. Those who made the rules and all the professional sports bodies and sports people who have not objected are to blame. The criteria that Hubbard and other trans athletes have to meet were designed by males including transwomen and based on a study of 8 non-elite transwomen athletes. It seems that the impact on actual female athletes was never a consideration. The goal was to include transwomen regardless. The maximum levels of testosterone that a transwoman athlete can have in order to qualify for a women's event is 10 times the levels that a female produces naturally. Says it all really.

2012: Stephanie Barrett has sex reassignment surgery
2016: Barrett takes up archery
2018-21: Barrett wins gold at the Canadian Championships, breaks the Canadian women's archery score and qualifies for the Tokyo Olympics in the women's individual recurve
thestar.com/.../olympic-archer-stephanie-barrett
...
2017: CeCe Telfer is ranked 390th among male NCAA Division II athletes in the 400m hurdles category
2018: Telfer 'transitions'
2019: Telfer is national NCAA Division II women's 400m hurdle champion
2021: Telfer hopes to qualify for the US Olympics
1998-2012: Laurel Hubbard fails to qualify for a single international men's tournament as a professional weightlifter
2013: Hubbard 'transitions' (aged 35)
2014-21: Hubbard qualifies for 11 international women's tournaments, including the Olympics
2013-15: Hannah Mouncey made 22 appearances for the Australian men's handball team, scoring 0 goals
2015: Mouncey 'transitions'
2018: Amid controversy, Mouncey is allowed to play 6 times for the Australian women's handball team, scoring 23 goals
Pre 2015: Golfer Hailey Davidson won 0 men's tournaments (in fact it doesn't look like Davidson even qualified for any tournaments)
2015: Davidson 'transitions'
2021: Davidson becomes the first male to win a women's professional golf tournament
2019: Mary Gregory, who had 'transitioned' as an adult, took up professional women's weightlifting and, at Gregory's first tournament, won all nine events at the 100% Raw Weightlifting Federation competition, breaking four world records in the process
Pre 2006: Fallon Fox served in the US Navy
2006: Fox 'transitions'
2012-14: Fox becomes an MMA fighter, winning all but one fights; in one fight fracturing a woman's skull
2011: Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy 'transitions' (aged 29)
2012-18: McKinnon / Ivy takes up professional women's cycling and wins the UCI Women’s Masters Track World Championship for the women's 35–44 age bracket
After 'transitioning' as a teenager, Maxine Blythin played cricket for both a men’s cricket team where Blythin had a batting average of 15, and the Kent women's cricket team, where Blythin had an average of 124 and was named women's cricketer of the year
'Before transitioning and competing in the women’s events, Kenzie Statz didn’t fare well in the men’s competitions. But [now] the transgender cyclist finishes more than 10 minutes ahead of the next closest competitor.'
Pre 2017: Tiffany Abreu is a volleyball player in Brazil's men's Superliga A & B divisions
2017: Abreu 'transitions'
2018: Abreu breaks Brazil's women's Superliga’s single game scoring record against a team that contained three Olympic gold medalists
Pre 2018: Valentina Petrillo wins 11 Italian men's Paralympic titles in a career that's coming to an end
2018: Petrillo 'transitions' (aged 44)
2020: Petrillo wins 3 gold medals at the women's Italian Paralympic Athletics Championships in just 24 hours
Gabrielle Ludwig 'transitioned' to a woman aged 50, in 2012, and immediately joined Mission College women's basketball team. Ludwig, who is 6 foot 8, 'led the team in scoring with 17 points a game and led the state in rebounding with 18 a game'
eu.usatoday.com/.../college-basketball.../1744703/
2014: Chelsea Wolfe 'transitions' and, the same year, takes up BMX cycling
2017: Wolfe switches to BMX Freestyle after discovering it's an Olympics event
2021: Wolfe is set to be one of the three Team USA BMX Freestyle women to qualify for the Olympics
2018: Sprinter Terry Miller 'now identifies as female'
2019: Miller wins the girls' 55 metre dash at the Connecticut Open Indoor Track Championships, breaking the girls' state indoor record. Second place goes to Andraya Yearwood, who also 'transitioned'
Up until 2012: Jillian Bearden is an elite men's cyclist but didn't quite make it to a professional standard
2014: Bearden transitions (aged 34)
2016: Bearden wins the Arizona El Tour de Tucson and becomes a professional peloton cyclist the following year
2007: Amelia Gapin took up running but failed to qualify for any major events
2012: Gapin 'transitions'
2016: Gapin is given a women's slot at the Boston Marathon
Michelle Dumaresq took up professional downhill mountain biking five years after 'transitioning'. Dumaresq went on to win the Canadian National Championships two years in a row
2012: Savannah Burton plays for Canada's men's dodgeball team, but it doesn't work out and Burton quits dodgeball
2013: Burton 'transitions'
2015-17: Burton returns to dodgeball and plays for Canada's women's team at two successive world championships
Athena Del Rosario 'transitioned' and became a women's NCAA football goalkeeper. Del Rosario has now taken up beach handball and hopes to qualify for the 2024 Olympics
Natalie Van Gogh 'transitioned' in 2005 and took up cycling. Van Gogh has now been a professional women's cyclist for nearly a decade, winning at least two major events in that time
Jessica Platt 'lived for' ice hockey but failed to make it professionally and quit the sport for seven years. During that time, Platt 'transitioned'. Since then, Platt has returned to the sport, making it as a professional for two Canadian women's teams
2020: Mara Gómez, who had recently 'transitioned', 'signs a contract with Villa San Carlos in the recently professionalised women’s Primera División, after years of journeying through the amateur leagues'
In 2009, Chris Bruce 'transitioned' and was competing in women's bodybuilding events by 2011 - 20 years after competing in men's bodybuilding events
Juniper Simonis played competitive sports before 'transitioning', to no apparent success. Since then Simonis has won the Women's Roller Derby World Championship four times
wftda.org/featured-skater/juniper-simonis
Caroline Layt played men's rugby league before 'transitioning' aged 30. Layt then took up women's rugby and was a finalist for 'women's player of the year'
1998: Parinya Charoenphol takes up kickboxing, winning one fight
1999: Charoenphol 'transitions'
2006: Charoenphol is allowed to compete in women's kickboxing, and goes on to win 20 fights, 18 by knockout
2000: Lauren Jeska 'transitions' and takes up fell-running
2010-12 Jeska wins numerous women's events including the 2012 British Fell Running Championships
2017: Jeska is jailed for the attempted murder of a coach who asked to see Jeska's hormone levels
JayCee Cooper was a men's competitive curler and rower, who 'transitioned' before 2019 and took up powerlifting. In 2019 Cooper became the USPA Minnesota Women's State Champion while setting the women's bench press record
Up until 2020: Kate Weatherly competes in the New Zealand men's downhill mountain bike open division (the grade below elite) but fails to win any events
2020: Weatherly 'transitions'
2021: Weatherly wins the New Zealand elite women's national championship

its ridiculous ive said this before i dont care if im called transphobic but that person biologically a male-so not fair in any sense

i think the others should strike and not compete

@erinaceus

One aspect that puzzles me is that a transwoman who won would win knowing that they have a physiological advantage, surely that would not feel good in terms of sense of achievement(?) Or are transwomen in such a situation authentically unaware of the advantage they have, or do not believe that they have such an advantage.

I can't believe they don't know. They bloody well do. Laurel was competing as a male. Came in about 200 in the male category. Would never have had a chance to go forward and compete in the Olympics against other men. If there was any equivalency after transitioning LH would be coming in at that level in the female category. If the reduction of testosterone was in any way meaningful. Which it clearly isn't. As we all know.

The fact that laurel has now got a place in the women's Olympics shows that laurel has a huge male advantage. That advantage never went away when LH decided to identify as a woman.

Janice Turner in The Times today has written an excellent article on this.

I hope LH does compete. And wins. And the resulting publicity and outcry will expose this madness: women’s sex based rights should not be lost to the feelings of a few men. Not in Sport, not in prisons ( in case you don’t know Californian prisons are expecting pregnancies in their vulnerable prisoners once trans prisoners transfer from male prisons), not in healthcare, not in bathrooms, not anywhere.

When women have “naturally high testosterone levels” those levels might be in the 3-5 range at the extreme due to disease such as PCOS

And these women are likely to be unwell, not elite athletes.

The ruling also states that DSD athletes who are XX don’t need to alter their testosterone levels. No one will ever hear about these athletes.

So any time the media is talking about “female” athletes who who have been required to lower their “naturally high” testosterone they must be XY with high testosterone from testes and be sensitive to androgens (have gone through a male puberty)

Not in any way fair. Hubbard is a male, it's a simple as that. He should not be competing against women.