New tenants are refusing to hand over my daughter’s parcels

[PerseverancePays]

My daughter ordered £200 worth of clothes for herself and her baby from Next and forgot to put her new address on the order form. The courier has sent a photo of the door opened to her old flat with a man’s leg showing accepting the parcels. She asked her upstairs neighbour to pop down and get the parcels and hang on to them until I can get round there, but the new tenants have point blank said they’ve not had any parcels delivered !
I’m going round there tomorrow morning to show them the picture of them receiving them and seeing what they have to say about that.
If they still refuse, which is daylight robbery, would the police take any notice at all?
I’m also a bit nervous as I’m a short and small woman and easily intimidated. WWYD?

If they won't hand it over, although theft seems to have happened, it's probably going to be very difficult for the police to establish beyond reasonable doubt who the thief is, so you can forget any prosecution.

If you want to get legalistic you could threaten them with a small-claims court action in civil law - look up the tort of conversion. The burden of proof is much lower - only on the "balance of probabilities". Whether you can be arsed with any of that is another matter entirely.

A threat of section 21 eviction at the end of the term is another option.

@MinkeDinkie

Well until your daughter speaks to them I'd not be getting het up. They might not have wanted to hand over to a random neighbour incase they weren't genuine and just gave an excuse. Or one tenant might have put it to one side for you and the other was unaware.

Until they tell you to your face (at which point you can show them the delivery photo) it's a bit unfair calling them thieves.

^^ This. Your daughter needs to go round. With ID and, possibly, proof of her current address. Even then they may not want to hand it over fearing it may be a scam of some sort. So she will need to be prepared to ask them to return it to Next instead (which she might need to speak to next about, since there will be postage costs etc for something that is her fault).

@BluebellsareBlue

Retired cop here... can't believe posters saying police wouldn't be interested, this is a simple theft. If you don't get it OP call the police they will deal with it as the theft it is

I think you may have lost some of your sharpness in retirement. This is not simple theft at all. For a start, there is no dishonest appropriation.

It is theft they could have said to the courrier 'sorry they've moved out' and let them return to sender.?

May have been mentioned before but I wouldn't mention if I didn't have to that the photo is only of their leg. I'd just say photo. You could also beef it up that the courier has provided a statement and description of recipient?

There is a common scam of people getting parcels delivered to random addresses then knocking on the door to pick them up. Parcel may have you dd's name on but their address. Similar happened to us. ASOS parcel. DS took it in as our neighbour often has ASOS parcels. I contacted ASOS bit of a faff and sent it back to them. Someone from our estate out on group chat who's taken in my parcel?? I pointed out it had our address on. Had no idea whose it was and had returned it. She sounded pretty arsy and said 'that was quick...' which particularly pissed me off. No apology. No thanks. Even when I supplied her with the return code. I reminded her to change address to correct one before she reordered.

@JustLoveYourselfALittle

It is theft they could have said to the courrier 'sorry they've moved out' and let them return to sender.?

The fact they could have done something different doesn't mean it's theft.

And it may be they didn't realize the person the parcel was addressed to wasn't living at the house (if a friend housesitting answered the door for example, or if they just didn't check who it was addressed to).

So far they've had someone send them a parcel that they shouldn't have (hassle) and a random neighbour who isn't that person has come and asked them about what post they get. The fact they are not forthcoming to a nosey neighbour about what parcels they receive is hardly an indication of guilt.

Doesn't mean they aren't intending keeping the stuff. It's just they're being condemned here for, so far, doing no more than many MNers would advise them to do if they'd posted that they'd received a parcel addressed to someone they don't know.

There is a common scam of people getting parcels delivered to random addresses then knocking on the door to pick them up. Parcel may have you dd's name on but their address.

@Dontfuckingsaycheese

Why would someon send a parcel to another address with their name on it but somebody else's address? The only time I have done that is if I was on holiday at my in laws and send it to their address for when I arrive.

@MinkeDinkie

Well until your daughter speaks to them I'd not be getting het up. They might not have wanted to hand over to a random neighbour incase they weren't genuine and just gave an excuse. Or one tenant might have put it to one side for you and the other was unaware.

Until they tell you to your face (at which point you can show them the delivery photo) it's a bit unfair calling them thieves.

^ This

They may be wholly dishonest but there may also be a breakdown in communication.

I would have your DD go round, with proof of ID and the order details and speak to the tenants before anything else.

She needs to knock, be apologetic and explain the situation - she is a former tenant and forgot to update her address for this delivery and she has been provided proof of delivery to this address. Do they have her parcel? If so, she is so sorry for the inconvenience and will ensure her address is updated in future and won't bother them again. If not then she needs to report the theft to the police since the proof of delivery from the courier shows it being accepted at this address.

Not sure what advice to give op other than getting your dd to go there herself and show the proof of delivery photo, so they can't deny that there wasn't any parcels.
I hope she gets them back.

Hmmm.
Hard one
As in, if the address on the delivery form is not your daughter's current address, but she hasn't bothered/got round to changing it to her new one, the delivery people haven't technically done anything wrong.
They've fulfilled their end.
The person who has accepted the goods on your daughter's behalf though who are now living in her place (reminds me of Friends I'm Rachel Greep, I'm Rachel Greep!!! lol)
Not technically done anything wrong but is a massive bellend for it for want of a more eloquent phrase lol

They'll likely behave differently when the actual recipient turns up. I probably wouldn't hand over a parcel to someone else who says they are the recipient's previous upstairs neighbour.

She needs to go round herself and find out whats what before jumping to the conclusion they stole it.

It's theft. Plain and simple.
Your daughter paid for It, they didn't.
She wants it back, they won't give it to her.

Phone 101 in the morning.

I'd get your daughter to go.round with her husband or a friend and ask for it back with her ID, if they don't then she needs to call the police and next

This is not simple theft at all. For a start, there is no dishonest appropriation.

@NumberTheory OP said that the new tenants have denied that any parcel was delivered to them. That is a lie, so dishonest. And they said it so they could keep the parcel- appropriation.

It’s only illegal to open someone else’s mail which has been delivered to your house if you intend to commit fraud (such as identify theft).

Otherwise, it isn’t illegal.

You must have some strange laws in the UK, as it is definitely illegal here if it is addressed to anyone other than the people living at the residence, or "the householder".

@HaveringWavering

This is not simple theft at all. For a start, there is no dishonest appropriation.

@NumberTheory OP said that the new tenants have denied that any parcel was delivered to them. That is a lie, so dishonest. And they said it so they could keep the parcel- appropriation.

Lying to some random neighbor after you’ve received it is not dishonest appropriation. The neighbor has no right to the information, and telling her they had a parcel or not had nothing to do them getting it. If they intentionally lied to the deliver driver so that s/he would hand it over, that would be dishonest. But we have no indication of that and most people’s experience suggests that they were unlikely to have been put in a position where lying was necessary (I.e. delivery drivers rarely ask if the named recipient lives there).

Even lying to the OP’s daughter wouldn’t necessarily be dishonest appropriation, depending on what else they did. Our criminal law isn’t written so that people can fall into being criminals just because someone else makes a mistake and they don’t want to jump through hoops for the mistake maker, however small those hoops might be.

@xsquared

There is a common scam of people getting parcels delivered to random addresses then knocking on the door to pick them up. Parcel may have you dd's name on but their address.

@Dontfuckingsaycheese

Why would someon send a parcel to another address with their name on it but somebody else's address? The only time I have done that is if I was on holiday at my in laws and send it to their address for when I arrive.

Because it makes them very hard to trace.

Imagine a very simple scenario - you get a stolen credit card and order some goods. If you have them delivered to your address, you can be traced. If you get them delivered to someone else’s address, someone who doesn’t know you, and go round and pick them up explaining that you made a mistake, it’s very hard for the company to find out who you are.

@Formaldeheidi

Then she needs to chalk it up to experience and remember not to do it again. We’ve all done it. It sucks.

Actually no. We’ve not all done it.

The person whose name is on the parcel needs to go round with proof of ID and the photo. Why should they give it to you? Your daughter needs to go round and just ask in a friendly way for it as the photo showed it was delivered there.

@Mandalay246

It’s only illegal to open someone else’s mail which has been delivered to your house if you intend to commit fraud (such as identify theft).

Otherwise, it isn’t illegal.

You must have some strange laws in the UK, as it is definitely illegal here if it is addressed to anyone other than the people living at the residence, or "the householder".

According to the Postal Services Act 2000, it is illegal to open mail that is not addressed to you, unless you can show reasonable excuse and you are not doing so with the intention of purposely denying the correct recipient from receiving it.

So, for example, I live with my preteen DD (when she isn't at her dad's house) so 99.9% of any mail we receive is for me unless its around her birthday/Christmas, and they are very clearly birthday/Christmas cards. Because of this, when I open our mailbox if there is a few letters waiting then I don't read the front of all of the envelopes to check the addressee, I just open them. If I was to accidentally open a letter that was not for me then I can use the reasonable excuse that I have been in my flat for over a year and all post for previous tenants stopped after a couple of months so I would not expect to receive a letter for anyone but myself/DD. (If it was for a neighbour I would just take it over and apologise that their post was in my mailbox and I didn't realise till after I had opened the envelope; if it was a former tenant or unknown person I would reseal the envelope and return to sender or put it into another envelope and send it back.

Another example might be that I suddenly start getting a lot of letters for Jane Smith. Even after returning to sender a few times, if the letters for Jane Smith kept coming and I opened one to find out who was sending them then that would not be illegal as I would have the reasonable excuse of opening it to find further information to stop the letters from coming.

Yes melj1213 that all makes perfect sense, but in this case it was a parcel. No-one opens a parcel by mistake (except maybe if they were expecting one, but I certainly always check the name on it before opening). And in this case the receiver of the parcel is denying they ever received one, despite evidence to the contrary, so it's a lie and theft.

No-one opens a parcel by mistake (except maybe if they were expecting one, but I certainly always check the name on it before opening). And in this case the receiver of the parcel is denying they ever received one, despite evidence to the contrary, so it's a lie and theft.

How do you know they weren't expecting a parcel of their own too? If they were expecting a parcel then they may not have double checked the addressee.

Equally we only have the neighbours word that they denied the parcel was received, there could easily be some miscommunication about what was said; one tenant took in the parcel and another spoke to the neighbour without being aware that the parcel was taken in or the person just didn't want to start giving out details to some random third party so denied everything to get rid of them.

Until the OPS DD actually goes and speaks to them in person and they tell her that it was never delivered then they haven't done anything illegal as until then they haven't spoken to the actual recipient and therefore arent purposely withholding it from her (they're withholding from the neighbour, which they are allowed to do). Once she has spoken to them directly and they still maintain their claim of non-delivery that is when it becomes illegal.

I’m shocked a lot of people are saying the police won’t help. They will, if they have the time they will probably even pay your neighbour a visit. Unless you live somewhere like London where they don’t seem to give a shit about anything. But you can at least get a crime reference number and resolve it with Next. A crime has been committed here, surprised a lot of people are saying not! Have been in this situation so I know!

Your daughter should go round, it's her parcel, why would they give it to you any more than the neighbour.

if they are dishonest they may think they can get refunds on the items but they won't as any refund in Next goes back on the account it was paid from as everything is individually tracked.