To ask, if you are antivax (not just Covid) but use modern medicine, where is the line?

[LivingInABuildingSite]

Just found out an old friend is totally antivax (not just Covid although that’s how it came up in conversation).

I asked if she’d had her kids vaccinated with the usual baby ones, no, none of them. She said she believes in homeopathy (which I’m not averse to, just wouldn’t rely on). I’m quite shocked but messaged that we’d agree to disagree on this one, as don’t want to wreck the friendship.

So thought I’d ask on here.

Now I know she had c-sections for all of her DC so it got me thinking.

If you don’t agree with using the discoveries of modern medicine in the form of vaccinations to prevent unpleasant but entirely avoidable illnesses, why is it ok to accept similar discoveries such as anaesthesia (and not just in an emergency situation)?

Where is the tipping point of what’s ok to accept and what isn’t?

I’m really interested to hear antivaxxer views, as I’ve only come across those shouting at me outside the vaccine clinic (volunteer) who aren’t up for a conversation about it, and this friend, who I don’t want to push any further.

Taking it a step further, is it ok to trust in a more natural way of things, but wear makeup? Or eat processed food (I’m sure her kids don’t eat 100% vegan, organic, etc)? Or even use the internet?

Where is the line?

The reason old people wanted the vaccine wasn't because they are closer to death, but because a lot of them remember the days before effective vaccines and antibiotics. They remember kids with leg calipers as they had caught polio, or kids in iron lungs for the same reason, they remember TB and watching people die as there was no effective treatment or vaccine. And don't start on syphilis and how many people died as a result of Third Stage Syphilis as, yet again, there were no effective treatments. If you haven't done so, look at photos of babies or children with congenital syphilis. That is shocking.
Sorry, but I think a lot of this is, as another said, just first world problems. We, who live in the developed world, don't see many people with polio, or TB or syphilis, or Ebola, or leprosy or any of the other truly awful infections or diseases, so we think they don't exist.
My oldest has Type 1 diabetes, I thank modern medicine for developing treatment for the illness, for insulin pumps, continual blood sugar monitors and all the other medical wonders of the day.
BTW my mother caught measles as a baby, she had very poor eyesight for her whole life and that was attributed to having measles.
And as for testing babies during labour, thank goodness the obstetrician got out the forceps for me! And, yes, we have all had all of our vaccines.

In my experience there is no logic to anti vaxxers. Someone I know is very anti vaccine but seems fine with all other medical interventions. The thing is her child got meningitis as a toddler and it still hasn't made her change her mind.
As for the rhetoric about babies having to pass the test of birth. It's utter nonsense. My children were both born by c sections, my dd because she was stuck and my ds because my previous scar started to rupture. The idea that 2 perfectly healthy children and their mother should have died is abhorrent and coming from a nurse and midwife even worse.
My dad lost his dad when he was a toddler to polio, leaving my grandma with 3 young children to care for. My dh cousin is disabled due to meningitis, spent most of his childhood in and out of hospital having surgeries so that he could walk. His parents would have loved the meningitis vaccine believe me.

@LoislovesStewie

The reason old people wanted the vaccine wasn't because they are closer to death, but because a lot of them remember the days before effective vaccines and antibiotics. They remember kids with leg calipers as they had caught polio, or kids in iron lungs for the same reason, they remember TB and watching people die as there was no effective treatment or vaccine. And don't start on syphilis and how many people died as a result of Third Stage Syphilis as, yet again, there were no effective treatments. If you haven't done so, look at photos of babies or children with congenital syphilis. That is shocking. Sorry, but I think a lot of this is, as another said, just first world problems. We, who live in the developed world, don't see many people with polio, or TB or syphilis, or Ebola, or leprosy or any of the other truly awful infections or diseases, so we think they don't exist. My oldest has Type 1 diabetes, I thank modern medicine for developing treatment for the illness, for insulin pumps, continual blood sugar monitors and all the other medical wonders of the day. BTW my mother caught measles as a baby, she had very poor eyesight for her whole life and that was attributed to having measles. And as for testing babies during labour, thank goodness the obstetrician got out the forceps for me! And, yes, we have all had all of our vaccines.

Exactly this. My blood boils when I hear people talk about natural immunity, trusting our bodies. As for @LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus "tested by labour", there are no words. Let's see what a mother in a third world country who's lost several children in childbirth and other to preventable childhood illnesses think of these views, shall we? The phrase "we dint know we're born" comes to mind here

@blublub I really appreciated your answer as I had never thought about it from that perspective before.

Thank you for sharing.

Out of the antivaxxers I know most are stupid or paranoid. Or are the type of person who hates being seen as mainstream and so will always take the minority viewpoint.

The only antivaxxer I know who doesn’t fit into any of these categories is a woman whose life experience has bred deep distrust of the medical system. She has had epilepsy since she was a teenager and has constantly struggled with finding a medical solution to control her epilepsy. Medicines don’t work, or have bad side effects, a doctor is dismissive to her, or doesn’t understand her situation etc. Decades of this mean she’s built up a lot of scepticism and distrust of mainstream medical thinking. In her context I can kind of understand her perspective (although I don’t agree with it).

LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus, I think your post is actually quite distasteful. Especially on a board for mothers, some of whom have lost children in childbirth or had sickly newborns who required medical intervention to survive, such as I did.

Good on you for aspiring to the Spartan ideal of raising strong children and exposing the weak/ill/deformed, but a little empathy wouldn’t go astray.

Well I can't speak for these people... they're probably all motivated differently anyway. But it seems obvious that 'the line' is where benefits outweigh risks. Clearly your friend isn't going to have surgery without anaesthesia.

Clearly

Shunning modern science actually comes from a position of privelege

Absolutely.

It's pure decadence.

I'm uneasy about the Covid vaccinations and some others, because of the use of lines from aborted babies in their creation or their testing - I'm pro-life.

I still had the covid vaccine - and my husband and children and I have all the recommended vaccinations. On balance, we feel it's the right thing to do - no new babies would be aborted because we choose to have the vaccine, whereas lives might be saved by herd immunity.

I spoke to a friend who is anti-vac after his son was very ill in hospital. I said essentially what you have, you trusted doctors then, why wouldn't you trust them now, and he told me, quite proudly that they'd removed him from the ward after turning his son's oxygen off at the tap, as he didn't believe he needed it. I was but he seemed to be pleased that it marked him out as an "independent thinker" and not a "sheep". Beggars belief that people like this are allowed kids, though, incidentally, he is split from their mum and doesn't see them very often now...

@FriedasCarLoad

I'm uneasy about the Covid vaccinations and some others, because of the use of lines from aborted babies in their creation or their testing - I'm pro-life.

I still had the covid vaccine - and my husband and children and I have all the recommended vaccinations. On balance, we feel it's the right thing to do - no new babies would be aborted because we choose to have the vaccine, whereas lives might be saved by herd immunity.

It's stem cells taken from viable embryos discarded by IVF clinics, not "aborted babies". Do you really think they fish them out of women and package them off to be used? Absolute bollocks.

The embryos would have otherwise been completely discarded FYI, as hundreds of thousands are each day...

I get some of the logic in drawing the line with some medical interventions, as I guess I do have my own lines too, such as not taking anti biotic as a precaution, I'd likely decline mental health medication and I'm hesitant to take medications that have any addictive qualities - though I think the key word Is hesitant, I would not rule it out.

However I think vaccines fall into a different category, vaccines to me are not so much about personal risk but about contributing to a healthy society and a shared responsibility. Therefore unless theres a medical exemption, I do find it hard to respect the reasons why someone would opt out of the collaborative effort to improve society health.

Most of the reasons people give I feel are very flawed, such as the risks of clots. This is a risk women have been taking with the pill for decades, it's nothing new.

I do have my own lines too, such as not taking anti biotic as a precaution, I'd likely decline mental health medication and I'm hesitant to take medications that have any addictive qualities

That all sounds very pragmatic and sensible and I'd probably take the same position as you on all of those. But that's all grounded in scientific evidence. There's tons of evidence around how antibiotics create resistance and the science of addiction. Mental health is more of an emerging field but I can understand your reticence to medicate depression for example.

But all of this is a very different kettle of fish from saying: "mother nature will take care of it" and suggesting that you can build up your "natural immunity" by eating the right foods and taking supplements etc. Of course eating healthily gives you a better overall immune defence position but there's no evidence that your diet can confer COVID immunity or anything like that.

I mean natural immunity obviously does exist and when it works it is fantastic. However, people have flaws. Our bodies can go into overdrive and produce too much of an immune reaction which can kill. Equally we might not produce enough of an immune reaction which again can kill.

I see vaccines as a safe guard - a relatively safer way to encounter disease (for most people). Waiting for herd immunity to occur means lots of deaths in the process although the ones which develop natural immunity might have very good immunity. Vaccination means less deaths in the process of gaining herd immunity although immunity gained through vaccination may not be as strong as natural immunity's however we cannot predict which category we will be in or even whether the natural immunity is strong enough not to carry the disease.

Tbh I stopped overthinking. You have to sometimes. We do pay others to chew through all the data. My hunch when I got the call was 'have it' because I was simply unprepared for my emotion at being offered it. I felt like I had won something. So decided to treat it as such. I also believe nocebo and placebo affects can influence how we respond to medicine to a very large extent so it is important to get in the right frame of mind.

Interesting question Op.

I’m old enough to remember the days when disagreeing about politics and fundamental issues made for great after dinner conversation and a late night. I’m fascinated by other people’s understandings of the world and this is exactly the sort of thing I love to hear about.

Everything these days is so fraught and it’s like we’re in a war zone where you’re either with me or against me. There used to be so much nuance to explore but now every opportunity to challenge your thinking gets shut down at the first hurdle.

I mean natural immunity obviously does exist and when it works it is fantastic. However, people have flaws. Our bodies can go into overdrive and produce too much of an immune reaction which can kill. Equally we might not produce enough of an immune reaction which again can kill.

Yep. Human bodies do have innate immunity to some things, which is great, and you can do a lot to support your body's natural defences through lifestyle. But innate immunity plainly isn't enough to prevent some people from getting very sick from COVID-19. The idea that you can handle it just by taking enough zinc or whatever is deluded.

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.

This is terrifying. Especially coming from a so called medical professional.

@ElvisPresleyHadABaby

I spoke to a friend who is anti-vac after his son was very ill in hospital. I said essentially what you have, you trusted doctors then, why wouldn't you trust them now, and he told me, quite proudly that they'd removed him from the ward after turning his son's oxygen off at the tap, as he didn't believe he needed it. I was but he seemed to be pleased that it marked him out as an "independent thinker" and not a "sheep". Beggars belief that people like this are allowed kids, though, incidentally, he is split from their mum and doesn't see them very often now...

Probably safest for them he isn't in their lives...

Why are you friends with him though? I couldn't be friends with a moron that turned his own sons oxygen off. He should really have his own oxygen supply reduced, kind of a waste on him.

I'm in 2 minds as to whether it's worth my time writing this post.

But I believe the OP asked in good faith so here is a pespective from someone that the OP would no doubt call "antivaxxx".

1. First off I think the term anti-vaxx is rude, ignorant and offensive. I am not "anti-vaxx", I am extremely cautious about vaccination.

1. "Anti-vaxx" isn't a word in the dictionary so I don't know what you actually mean by it.

It seems to mean different things to different people so is a stupid word to use if you are trying to have a useful conversation. It is generally considered an insult with underlying tones of "tin foil hat wearer" hence why a lot of peeple won't bother to engage with you.

1. I am cautious about covid vaccines as they are currently being administered under the WHO Emergency Use Listing Procedure. This means that covid vaccines have been fast-tracked and are not yet licensed in the standard way.

Considering that we are in a pandemic situation I totally understand why this has been done but it does mean that we currently have only limited and short-term information (about safety, efficacy and impact on herd immunity and virus mutation).

1. Why do I care about this? Because my DD1 had an adverse reaction to a vaccine when she was baby. We knew it was a vaccine reaction as she had severe swelling and redness at the site of injection (think baby leg doubled in size). She then went on to become very ill and was diagnosed as "failure to thrive". The reason for this being that her immune system went haywire and she became allergic to nearly all foods. Her GP, her allergist and the A and E doctors all agree that this was an adverse vaccine event. The vaccine she was given is no longer in use - it has been withdrawn.

1. My DD is now a teenager and is well. She still has some health issues related the above but she is doing well. We spent years trying to build her health back up she has been through a lot. She hasn't had any vaccines since the one that she reacted to. We are very nervous about her having any (covid or otherwise) as is her doctor.

1. My DD2 did not have baby vaccines (our doctor agreed with us that is was too risky). She has had a tetanus vaccine following when she cut her head open on some metal. We agreed with the A and E doctor who gave her the vaccine that it would be a single vaccine and not a combined. She has lost pigmentation at the vaccine site (about the size of a coin) but no severe reaction thankfully.

1. I was all for vaccines before one of my children turned into a statistic. At one point our doctor warned me to keep my DD at home as much as possible and practice hospital level hygiene as a bout of gastric illness or a bad cold could have killed her. I admit that I hadn't given vaccines much thought before and I assumed that they were perfectly safe and could only be a good thing that we were lucky to have and that of course my children would have. I didn't even know that bad reactions were a thing.

1. A vaccine nearly killed my child and took years of normal life from us as a family. Our entire world became about my DDs health. I had to stop work for years to care for her so we were impacted financially too. It took 2 seconds to give her the jab and we are still living with the consequences and my DD will live with the remaining ones for the rest of her life. Call me anti-vaxxx (and no doubt you will) but we are not alone unfortunately. No-one knows beforehand if you will be among the (relatively) small number of unlucky ones. I'm happy for all those that vaccination is a good thing for but when it doesn't work out the consequences can be life changing if not life threatening.

1. Do I reject other medical procedures? The short answer is no. The longer answer is that I have become a lot more cautious. I imagine like a lot of people we have had some issues with other medicines and procedures and some of them have been life saving (my DD had a scary reaction to an anti-histamine but has had her life saved by ventolin, I didn't get on very well with an epidural but have regular B12 injections which are amazing for me, my dad has recently had his life saved by heart surgery but then was made very ill by medicine for another problem).

Life is not black and white.

@beachcomber

I'm sorry to hear you went through that: your position is very understandable and your post is well thought out and articulated. And you're right that caution about vaccines is a perfectly rational position.

But with respect to you "anti-vaxx" is a thing: there is a concerted effort being made by a lot of people to persuade us that vaccines are dangerous and part of a plot to control or repress ordinary people. These may be for the most part a lunatic fringe but this position does matter because it impacts on people like you who have legitimate concerns and the broader public: ordinary people who are scared or concerned and don't have enough scientific knowledge to make properly informed decisions. And for the most part it plays on legitimate fears to push a profoundly unscientific agenda, one which is often fed by political ends it doesn't disclose.

So while I respect your personal concerns and those of millions of others, I don't think its fair to say that "anti-vaxx" is offensive.

A lot of people are genuinely concerned about the effect that these people are having on public discourse and public health.

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.

I'd be more concerned about the poision being spouted here than what is in any vaccine or medicine. I think this has to be the most hideous comment I have ever read on MN.

@thepeopleversuswork

Thank you.

However the OP said in her title "if you are anti-vaxx".

She isn't talking about or to a lunatic fringe. She is talking to MNers on a parenting forum.

So where do you and the OP "draw the line"? Am I not an anti-vaxxer because I have a backstory that is acceptable to you?

I agree that (as with anything) there is a lunatic fringe. But there are also an awful lot of people who are perfectly normal responsible citizens who decline vaccines. And with good reason.

Talking about "anti-vaxxers" if you only mean some lunatic fringe who think covid is made up and we are secretly being microchipped / experimented on / turned into lizards is surely either a total waste of time or it is an entirely different subject to the one on this thread (more along the lines of "have you come across extreme lunatic fringe ideas about vaccination on do you think they influence and impact the general public's trust in vaccine programmes?" )

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@beachcomber

I'm sorry to hear you went through that: your position is very understandable and your post is well thought out and articulated. And you're right that caution about vaccines is a perfectly rational position.

But with respect to you "anti-vaxx" is a thing: there is a concerted effort being made by a lot of people to persuade us that vaccines are dangerous and part of a plot to control or repress ordinary people. These may be for the most part a lunatic fringe but this position does matter because it impacts on people like you who have legitimate concerns and the broader public: ordinary people who are scared or concerned and don't have enough scientific knowledge to make properly informed decisions. And for the most part it plays on legitimate fears to push a profoundly unscientific agenda, one which is often fed by political ends it doesn't disclose.

So while I respect your personal concerns and those of millions of others, I don't think its fair to say that "anti-vaxx" is offensive.

A lot of people are genuinely concerned about the effect that these people are having on public discourse and public health.[/quote]
I 100% agree with this.

I can understand why some people have legitimate concerns but unfortunately these are drowned out by people spreading very dangerous misinformation.

@LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus

While I think you have expressed your feelings very well, like others I find what you say very disturbing. The whole 'tested by labour' nonsense is horrific. I had C-sections due to mechanical difficulties with birth caused by EDS. My children and/or I would probably have died otherwise but both have always been perfectly healthy and there have never been any issues with their 'compatible with life' status. Should we have just taken our chances instead of following the 'medical model'? Had we done so, best case scenario I would have been left with a broken pelvis - should I then not have had this fixed or treated because I had somehow failed the test of labour? The mind boggles. Where is your line on medical intervention in these cases because it's not as simple as your post suggests.

My own personal viewpoint is that while I find it very interesting reading the more measured responses and more carefully considered reasons why people may choose not to vaccinate, this is definitely a position of privilege. Had these people, like I have, suffered the long term effects of measles on their eyesight (we were pre-vaccination generation), or like my neighbours suffered their twin teenage boys becoming infertile through mumps, I suspect they may see things differently.

It's very easy to dismiss the danger of some of these things when they appear to be a thing of the past and haven't touched you directly. A research trip to a few third world countries could possibly change that point of view.

@ElvisPresleyHadABaby

It's stem cells taken from viable embryos discarded by IVF clinics, not "aborted babies". Do you really think they fish them out of women and package them off to be used? Absolute bollocks.

The embryos would have otherwise been completely discarded FYI, as hundreds of thousands are each day...

Stem cells from those embryos are also used. I also disagree with the creation of 'spare' embryos.

Obviously I don't think it works in the way you describe it!

But lines are used from at least one aborted baby from the early or mid 1970s, I can't remember the exact year. A female baby who was aborted.