To ask, if you are antivax (not just Covid) but use modern medicine, where is the line?

[LivingInABuildingSite]

Just found out an old friend is totally antivax (not just Covid although that’s how it came up in conversation).

I asked if she’d had her kids vaccinated with the usual baby ones, no, none of them. She said she believes in homeopathy (which I’m not averse to, just wouldn’t rely on). I’m quite shocked but messaged that we’d agree to disagree on this one, as don’t want to wreck the friendship.

So thought I’d ask on here.

Now I know she had c-sections for all of her DC so it got me thinking.

If you don’t agree with using the discoveries of modern medicine in the form of vaccinations to prevent unpleasant but entirely avoidable illnesses, why is it ok to accept similar discoveries such as anaesthesia (and not just in an emergency situation)?

Where is the tipping point of what’s ok to accept and what isn’t?

I’m really interested to hear antivaxxer views, as I’ve only come across those shouting at me outside the vaccine clinic (volunteer) who aren’t up for a conversation about it, and this friend, who I don’t want to push any further.

Taking it a step further, is it ok to trust in a more natural way of things, but wear makeup? Or eat processed food (I’m sure her kids don’t eat 100% vegan, organic, etc)? Or even use the internet?

Where is the line?

I think that's a really interesting question about where is the line. Hoep this will go ok because I too am curious

My DH and I were discussing this at the weekend. A friend of a friend had said wasn’t getting the vaccine as ‘she didn’t believe in putting sh*t in her body and trusted her immune system’. Yet she smokes heavily, drinks alcohol and has lots of tattoos

We also wondered if those who didn’t want the vaccine also wouldn’t want the medication to help treat a person with covid. I’m a critical care nurse so have 1st hand experience exactly how much gets pumped into a covid patient to keep them alive. Most of it we’ve used for years and years, some nee/lesser used drugs?

I try to avoid these debates these days tho, I don’t have the mental strength anymore.

Great question OP. I know a raging conspiracy theorist, vaccines will kill us all, 5G, the whole shebang... chuffs away on cigarettes... I think I know which will get her first

I really hope you get some good responses to this. Why be anti vaccines but accept other medicine? What if you had cancer? Is that ok?

I suspect the line is a rather selfish one. Vaccines depend on us all having them. It's for the wider community. Anti vaxxers dont see the need for them or their children to have them because they are healthy, young etc etc etc. But if they feel they need medication they'll take it.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I wonder what she’d do about her kids. There’s a little lad near here that’s starting his last (hopefully) round of chemo for a brain tumour. Would she let her kids have chemo if they had cancer?

One of my children would’ve died several times over without modern medicine; would she have refused those interventions if it was her kid?

She said her kids are healthy with high school attendance, I didn’t want to fight about it but in my opinion that’s just luck not judgement.

What if her daughter caught measles in the future when pregnant? Would she take the blame for not protecting her?

I don’t think any antivaxxers will come on to comment and share their thoughts which is a shame as I’d like to know more about those who think so differently to me.

That’s what I think too Hamster - being antivax is a luxury only those who are surrounded by the vaccinated can choose.

I grew up abroad where people had limited access to medicine, they would think the antivax crowd insane. And I’m not talking about the covid jab particularly, but measles, meningitis, etc,.

I think you're looking at this wrong. No conspiracy theory holds up to logical scrutiny and each deluded victim will have their own 'facts' as to why they eschew this, that or the other.

There is no line. It's where people want it and it won't be based on anything supported by fact.

NB. homeopathy is bollocks.

I think the point is it is doing something that could potentially cause harm. The other stuff has already happened so you’re treating it. My take anyway. You can yell percentages until you’re blue in the face, but if you are responsible for ill effects by having a vaccine, that’s a big difference imo. No matter the balance of risks. You’re not responsible for getting a disease/needing treatment, but you are responsible for injecting yourself with something.

Not me but a cousin - C1... funny enough he's had the covid jab. But his kids have had none of the routine childhood vaccinations (except maybe tetanus -- or maybe not?). He's getting MSc in organic chemistry & maybe the scientific method is changing him.

cousin-1 has a brother, cousin-2 who is very specifically anti-covid jabs & pro Trump, somehow the lockdown controls etc are part of a left wing conspiracy against people like C2. But I imagine all of cousin-2's kids have had the usual jabs. The wider family is currently despairing about C2 not getting covid jab even though C1's kids are mostly unvaccinated.

C1 & C2 share a brother, cousin-3 who is very pro-vacc and conventional (a civil engineer). C3 didn't want his own baby around C1's unvacc'd kids. I don't fancy family gathering with all 3 brothers...

imho, cousin-1 does a lot of magical thinking. He's convinced that stem cell technology will make us all live forever, eventually. Not anti-science, just very skewed perception of what science can or should do.

I know of an anti vaxxer who is also a bit of a conspiracy theorist and has refused cancer treatment and is now terminal. I am really sad for them and their family and can't agree medically but also think they are less hypocritical than people who pick and choose.

Chunder - that’s certainly the impression I get from those outside the vaccine clinics who aren’t up for a rational chat!

Blubub - I can get that logic to some degree, preemptive vs reactive use of medicine. It’s more the ‘I won’t put X into my body’ until actually I will put any old thing in. Did she interrogate the Obs/Gynae about what was in the anaesthetic to check the ingredients? Unlikely IMO.

Don’t know why I posted that tbh. I don’t think anyone who asks these questions actually cares about the answers. Just seems to turn into an excuse for people to make themselves feel good about themselves for not being an ‘anti vaxxer’, which is a ludicrous pigeon-holing term in itself. No one is defined wholeheartedly on their medical status or religious or philosophical view points in one particular area of their life. But it seems that’s the point we have reached as a society. I think that is more damaging to society than any disease.

Not related to the covid vaccine, but I do remember a mum on my Facebook making a big post about why she chose to not vaccinate her children, and it went something along the lines of these points:

-The world is cleaner now and people are healthier, kids dont pick up diseases like they did in "the old days" (most stupid point ever)
-'Big pharma' make money by making people scared of illnesses that don't exist.
-We need to take responsibility for our own health
-how do we know we arent being poisoned.

• it's all about control / corruption

When I read most of those reasons, it does make sense that they should then deny medical intervention too as being Ill is their 'failure to take responsibility for own health' and how could they trust what is being given to them to cure an illness but not prevent one?

Those cousins would make for a lively family get together!!

Tigers - see that at least is consistent. If bonkers and sad.

I care about the answers in as much as I want to understand her thinking/other peoples thinking. That’s why I asked. But I don’t want a fight about it.

Mregg- see the taking responsibility line confuses me, isn’t making use of what the world has provided the responsible approach? Including what the scientific world has provided.

I think it's just weed causing this behaviour more and more to be honest. All the anti vaxxers I know smoke weed. They are paranoid and don't realise it. They are happy to eat processed food, smoke, drink, take drugs etc but for some reason a vaccine that has been tested is terrifying and dangerous. I don't think I'll ever understand the logic to be honest. But I suppose that's a good thing.

I had a neighbour who was anti vax who didn't have her kids vaccinated (she went on and on about it like she knew a secret the rest of us didn't). When I had DS I refused to let her or her kids come and see him. She just could not get her head round this. I will defend anyone's right not to be forced to take medical treatment even though I completely disagree with them. However they have to accept that others are entitled not to mix with them if they feel their choices may endanger them.

@LivingInABuildingSite

Just found out an old friend is totally antivax (not just Covid although that’s how it came up in conversation).

I asked if she’d had her kids vaccinated with the usual baby ones, no, none of them. She said she believes in homeopathy (which I’m not averse to, just wouldn’t rely on). I’m quite shocked but messaged that we’d agree to disagree on this one, as don’t want to wreck the friendship.

So thought I’d ask on here.

Now I know she had c-sections for all of her DC so it got me thinking.

If you don’t agree with using the discoveries of modern medicine in the form of vaccinations to prevent unpleasant but entirely avoidable illnesses, why is it ok to accept similar discoveries such as anaesthesia (and not just in an emergency situation)?

Where is the tipping point of what’s ok to accept and what isn’t?

I’m really interested to hear antivaxxer views, as I’ve only come across those shouting at me outside the vaccine clinic (volunteer) who aren’t up for a conversation about it, and this friend, who I don’t want to push any further.

Taking it a step further, is it ok to trust in a more natural way of things, but wear makeup? Or eat processed food (I’m sure her kids don’t eat 100% vegan, organic, etc)? Or even use the internet?

Where is the line?

A C-section is about as non homeopathic and pro medicine as you can get, so your friend is just picking and choosing what she fancies.

My mum nearly died from Polio in the 1950s as my Nan was what would now be called an anti vaxxer.
Even after that incident she refused to get my mum vaccinated against Polio!!
So my mum got herself vaccinated at school without my nans knowledge.

My Nan died in 2017, I wonder what she'd have thought of the Covid vaccine.

Personally I had the Covid vaccine, didn't think twice as I have to take high doses of toxic medication for 2 serious chronic health conditions anyway.

Good point OP I’m all for any vaccines they are needed to stop people from getting ill but I too would love to know where they draw the line my stance on it when it comes to the Covid vaccine is this if you don’t want the vaccine for whatever stupid reason then if you get Covid don’t turn up at the hospital looking for treatment why should resources be wasted on someone that doesn’t want the vaccine that will prevent them from getting seriously ill and ease the pressure on the NHS same goes for any vaccines don’t turn up at the hospital looking for help for an illness that there is a vaccine for if you don’t need the vaccine then you don’t need medical help. It’s funny how the people who say they don’t want the Covid vaccine because of blood clots are the same people who will happily take hormonal birth control without any hesitation your more at risk of getting a blood clot from birth control than a vaccine. These people seem to be scared of dying from a blood clot but not scared of dying from Covid not really sure how that one works.

I had a patient who lost faith in medicine after initially being misdiagnosed and given the wrong treatment for his cancer. Because of that, he refused all further medical interventions, and tried to self treat using ‘natural methods’ like cutting sugar and eating entire bulbs of raw garlic every day.

It was really sad, as his condition would most likely have been survivable with the correct treatment, but instead he deteriorated and became palliative.

Most people I know who have refused the Covid vaccine aren’t anxi vac as such just seem to have concerns that it’s “too new” and there’s not enough info of long term side effects. They seem to believe it could cause infertility or tumours or something like so “want to wait” and take their chances with Covid instead.

Interesting debate.

I'd never thought of it that way either - about where the line is drawn with putting medicine in your body.

I know one very vocal anti Vaxxer who did fall into the covid rabbit hole of conspiracy and actually began to look very ill. Lost a lot of weight.

The sad thing is she is an anti masker as well - went to marches etc. She works in care sector and said she couldn't wear a mask due to her asthma (not severe) and was then paid but told to wfh (basically paid to stay home!). She then wouldn't go out because she didn't want to go out without a mask when everyone was wearing masks but yet didn't want or believe in masks I think she actually got dangerously close to a breakdown driving herself in circles.

And yes she takes medication. She's on daily asthma inhalers for a start.

@itsgettingwierd

Interesting debate.

I'd never thought of it that way either - about where the line is drawn with putting medicine in your body.

I know one very vocal anti Vaxxer who did fall into the covid rabbit hole of conspiracy and actually began to look very ill. Lost a lot of weight.

The sad thing is she is an anti masker as well - went to marches etc. She works in care sector and said she couldn't wear a mask due to her asthma (not severe) and was then paid but told to wfh (basically paid to stay home!). She then wouldn't go out because she didn't want to go out without a mask when everyone was wearing masks but yet didn't want or believe in masks I think she actually got dangerously close to a breakdown driving herself in circles.

And yes she takes medication. She's on daily asthma inhalers for a start.

I'd ask her how does she know the inhalers aren't making her sick? It's just taking a very long time. Maybe they make her asthma worse so she has to keep paying out forever for them.

I'm not anti vax. Had all the vaccinations. So have my D.C. However I do understand how someone can be against one form of medical intervention but pro another. Basically they may agree with other people's advice and opinions but not wholeheartedly trust everything they say. Medicine based on statically data is great until you feel you may be the anomaly added to this some treatments are indeed statistically more reliable than others. I've had cancer treatment and know how much is a gamble and how much is experimental. I took treatments but acknowledged that.

the people I know with these beliefs don't believe in germ theory. So having a c section would be entirely consistent because they don't believe there's bacteria to cause an infection or anything!!