To ask, if you are antivax (not just Covid) but use modern medicine, where is the line?

[LivingInABuildingSite]

Just found out an old friend is totally antivax (not just Covid although that’s how it came up in conversation).

I asked if she’d had her kids vaccinated with the usual baby ones, no, none of them. She said she believes in homeopathy (which I’m not averse to, just wouldn’t rely on). I’m quite shocked but messaged that we’d agree to disagree on this one, as don’t want to wreck the friendship.

So thought I’d ask on here.

Now I know she had c-sections for all of her DC so it got me thinking.

If you don’t agree with using the discoveries of modern medicine in the form of vaccinations to prevent unpleasant but entirely avoidable illnesses, why is it ok to accept similar discoveries such as anaesthesia (and not just in an emergency situation)?

Where is the tipping point of what’s ok to accept and what isn’t?

I’m really interested to hear antivaxxer views, as I’ve only come across those shouting at me outside the vaccine clinic (volunteer) who aren’t up for a conversation about it, and this friend, who I don’t want to push any further.

Taking it a step further, is it ok to trust in a more natural way of things, but wear makeup? Or eat processed food (I’m sure her kids don’t eat 100% vegan, organic, etc)? Or even use the internet?

Where is the line?

I have a ranty anti-vaxxer in my family. It’s all I can do, whenever he walks into a room and (say) flicks on the light-switch, not to shout ‘Hey, look at that great science! Handy, innit?’

I think that Covid/vax conspiracy believers are all hard of thinking, honestly. There are probably a few living out on a rocky atoll alone who actually ‘walk their talk’ , but otherwise it’s an exercise in hypocrisy and irony.

If only it were more entertaining and less frightening for the rest of us.

@grasstreeleaf

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.

Further to my earlier comment on this I find this a bit unsettling since you are a midwife. My hunch was correct all considering the interventions that were needed when I gave birth - the availability of obstetricians and anaesthetists and surgeons was important to me and for good reason.

Agree that the thought of a midwife concluding it would have been better if a baby had died is very disturbing.

You’re not responsible for getting a disease/needing treatment, but you are responsible for injecting yourself with something.

This makes no sense - of course you are responsible for getting a disease / needing treatment if you have chosen not to have a vaccine that would have made those outcomes less likely.

I live next door to the only anti-vaxxer i know. We get on well enough and have had conversations about it where she believes the whole “autism is caused by the MMR” bollocks. I have a ds with autism who did indeed have his MMR and I’m more than convinced that both of her dc are on the spectrum.
What makes me laugh the most though is when she spouts all the crap about not knowing what is being put into her body regarding the covid vaccine ( her belief- fair enough ) BUT she openly and regularly shoves white powder of unknown origin up her nose which sort of makes her argument a little weak and has done for over 10 years. She is absolutely thick beyond belief.

I remember the saying I’ve seen on here a lot regarding AV- you can’t argue with stupid.

I feel I shouldn't have to put myself at risk of a vaccine to help others who don't look after themselves and look to the medical model to save them.

Do you think that all of the people who would be at risk from covid are at risk because they don't look after themselves?

Do you feel that medical shouldn't have put themselves at risk during pandemic by caring for patients with covid and risking catching it themselves? Should they put themselves at risk now by caring for patients whi have chosen not to be vaccinated? It'd be a pretty sad world if we all just sat around putting ourselves first all of the time don't you think?

I have an old friend, going back two decades. We barely speak now except when I get irritated by her nonsense on unsocial media.

She's an alternative practitioner. She's done years of weird little courses on healthcare by odd little organisations.

She's an anti vaxer. Her children became very ill with measles some time ago.

She's a covid denier, one of those people who thinks it only attacks the unhealthy who are irresponsible and can die.

She believes she can cure covid through her alternative practice.

She thinks chemo is poisonous and you shouldn't have it if you have cancer.

Face masks cause infection.

Ivermectin (unproven) can cure the virus.

She's incredibly aggressive when challenged (by many friends) and keeps telling us to 'do our own research' like it would be better than a scientist whose studied for decades.

There's a lot of other odd, extreme right wing, racist stuff going on in her head which is very weird because that's not her background.

All very sad, stupid and selfish...

I think anti-vax folk are often just poorly educated as to how vaccines work. Unfortunately, social media probably has a large part to play in spreading misinformation. Many anti-vaxxers are only anti-vax because of this and haven’t thought critically about all the other medicines, drugs etc. that they take. They have a right to refuse a vaccine, but unfortunately it has an effect on the rest of us if we are trying to eradicate a disease.

I’m currently sat up in bed, dosed up on codeine and shivering away because I had the second Moderna vaccine yesterday (I was completely fine with the first). I’m still glad I had it, because I’m feeling incredibly sorry for myself right now and can only imagine how sorry for myself I would feel if I caught full blown Covid.

I can sympathise with the relative pp mentioned that refused cancer treatment though; I’ve had the misfortune to watch relatives go through very punishing cancer treatments. I don’t know how I would act if it was me in that position, I think my instinct to keep myself alive by all means (and treatments) might override, but on more than one occasion, I have thought that if I were in the same situation I might be tempted to refuse treatment. Although, I’d definitely take any of the palliative care drugs to keep myself comfortable.

Modern medicine is wonderful. But it’s still important to educate yourself about how it works and to then make an informed choice about what you put into your body.

It’s interesting isn’t it? I think a lot of anti vaxxers are worried about side effects, but there are side effects in all kinds of medicine too so there’s no logic if you refuse vaccines, but are happy to take antibiotics for example. Or the contraceptive pill!

But I do think a lot of it is down to people thinking they are invincible. These illnesses (incl Covid) happen to other people, not them so they don’t see the benefit. They are probably the same people who “don’t believe in” life insurance. But when it does happen to them they are happy to have the treatment.

A family member was a very vocal Covid denier and anti vaxxer, and is just recovering from a very nasty bout of Covid that has knocked her for six for weeks. Bet she wishes she could go back in time and have that vaccine…

I can sympathise with the relative pp mentioned that refused cancer treatment though; I’ve had the misfortune to watch relatives go through very punishing cancer treatments. I don’t know how I would act if it was me in that position, I think my instinct to keep myself alive by all means (and treatments) might override, but on more than one occasion, I have thought that if I were in the same situation I might be tempted to refuse treatment. Although, I’d definitely take any of the palliative care drugs to keep myself comfortable.

Oddly enough, some alternative treatments spruiked by popular alternative treatment Facebook gurus are just as punishing and poisonous to the body. One such treatment is dried apricot kernels. When eaten to excess - more than 1-2 kernels a day, and the recommended doses for cancer treatment are far higher than this - the kernels are converted to cyanide in the digestive system. This means that on top of suffering cancer, the patient is also actively poisoning themselves.

Just want to comment on the sentence "tested by labour", supposedly written by a nurse/midwife - horrific!! No wonder there are so many traumatising birth experiences with people like that around. I guess that when women die in childbirth (and hundreds of thousands still do every year, mostly in countries where modern medicine is not available) they have just "failed the test"...

Tested by labour is an awful way for a midwife to think. The attitudes of some midwives at the hospital I had my first child at led to deaths of babies as the midwife led unit took pride in not involving doctors. This led to me requesting a section as I did not want to trust these midwives with my care.
Many people are vulnerable to covid through ill health which is not attributable to bad lifestyle choices. I would expect someone working for the nhs to know this.

Because they don’t understand preventative medicine, epidemiology, virology.

Because they like to think that they have more agency in their lives than they really have… we’re all just dots on a rock spinning around in space at the end of the day. Viruses don’t care about our personal special and unique traits and personalities.

Because society and the media peddle the myth that opposing views bring balance to everything (Brexit anyone?) when actually sometimes there is just one right way of doing something. It fills airtime/column inches though.

Because it makes them feel like they have some sort of special knowledge and expertise that others don’t have. The two most vocal anti vaxxers that I know aren’t formally educated, haven’t experienced academic rigour etc. Most people get through life fine without that, but some people have seen this as an opportunity to be a self-appointed expert.

Because a pandemic is scary and it gives them a feeling of control.

Because they’re upset about other things in their lives and it’s a reasonably acceptable outlet for fear/frustration/anger about other things.

Because they don’t have perspective on how disease has ripped through societies in other times and places… with our NHS ‘on tap’ (usually) and our generally clean and plentiful public services, we’re very insulated as a society from the true horrors of squalour and disease that other parts of the world and people in the past have experienced.

Because they buy into the personal choice/common sense/I’ll assess my own risk line of thinking when actually a pandemic requires a collective response organised at society level. It takes some good governance and spending on public infrastructure to achieve that… regardless of politicians bunging their mates or whatever we have a whole Public Health Service in this country (not the NHS but the public health specialism within it) that most people never knew existed, and actually still don’t. Lots of parts of the world don’t have this. Many people don’t even know that they’re benefiting from it day in day out.

Basically because as a society we give them a platform. Yes we should challenge authority in some circumstances… but we’ve lost the ability/appetite as a society to just tell noisy idiots to ‘get on with it’.

I haven’t got a lot of patience for the only antivaxer I know in real life. We lost my perfectly healthy uncle (58 non smoker no underlying conditions) to Covid in January. She told me afterwards that he ‘must have had something wrong with him anyway’ and would have died anyway. She won’t vax, and called me all kinds of rude things because I accepted the vax when my turn came. Apparently I am ignorant (not wishing to blow my own trumpet but I have two masters degrees one of which is an MSc in biology and she didn’t finish her Alevels so I suspect I’ve got more knowledge about this than her but whatever). Like others though she cheerfully takes illegal drugs on the weekend that have who knows what in them, and wasn’t above having an epidural with her second, so I came to the conclusion that logic and reasoning doesn’t feature highly in her thinking.

I think my main concern is taking medicine or medical advice which is prescribed to me by a doctor in good faith, which in years to come turns out to be bad, like a thalidomide for example.

I understand the concern but I do wish people would educate themselves rather than base their behaviour on fear and misunderstanding.

Thalidomide was developed as an antidote to nerve gases by a nazi war criminal during WW2. Drug regulation at that time was entirely different to today. That type of drug development system simply does not exist today - for many rather obvious reasons.

Would you also not eat beef because of the BSE/CJD risks from production systems in the 80s?

Ironically some of the drugs that people on this thread are comfortable with (inhalation anaesthetic agents) are ones that derive from that ore-drug testing/licensing time, and we still don't really know how they work!

Ironically it's entirely because of 'big pharma' and the development of rigorous safety testing and clinical trials that drugs today are so safe and one of the reasons why a thalidomide situation is incredibly unlikely.

Anyone interested in actually learning more about vaccines, thalidomide and various disease risks should have a listen to the podcast: thispodcastwillkillyou.com

They break down vaccine myths and explore the history of unethical medical research - it's certainly not an uncritical look at medical developments, but it is an evidence-based one.

Am pro Vax myself but people talking about not understanding the hypocrisy of those who are anti Vax slightly amuses me. I'd think very few people are totally non hypocritical about their beliefs and decisions in modern society tbh.

Also the idea of refusing people covid treatment to people who haven't got vaccinated, really? A dangerous road to go down, should we not treat disease caused by obesity, by addiction, etc etc?

I think there's an awful lot of mocking people's perceived stupidity tbh on this issue, and I'm fairly sure it's neither totally justified nor likely to change anyones mind. I don't believe in God, but I wouldn't dream of mocking otherwise sensible people who do.

I am not accepting the Covid vaccine as I feel natural immunity is better than a vaccine, although I may change this view as I get older.

What do you perceive as the difference between 'natural immunity' and a vaccine?

@LabiaMinoraPissusFlapus

Your view is definitely an odd one. It us basically let nature take its course, if they are meant to die, let them die. But I wonder how you will actually react if one of your children gets sick.

Say one of them catches meningitis, which is likely as none of them have had even one vaccine for it. That could kill them, or leave them disabled or very sick in life. Are you willing to watch them go through that? What would your decision be if the doctor said they can save your child by removing their limbs? Would you agree or not? I mean, it makes no difference really, the doctor will probably over rule you if you say no anyway.

What if they get measles mumps or rubella? Many children caught one of these diseases before the vaccine, one of my family members did. She has difficulty with her ears now at times, some people ended up deaf. That would make your children's lives harder, the vaccine wouldn't. Are you OK with taking the blame from your children?

What if you catch covid, end up with long covid with such damage done to your body you end up disabled? Or even from another disease. Not dead, but a lower quality of life anyway.

What if they do catch a disease, and they blame you for it? What if they all go no contact with you because of your beliefs? Are you still certain then that you are right?

Modern medicine does allow people to survive who wouldn't have maybe even 50-60 years ago. Assists with our over population problem. So I get your reasoning behind it. But I doubt you will stick to your beliefs if your children get sick. You have been lucky so far.

I’ve always assumed that it’s a risk versus reward decision. A vaccine protects you from something that possibly won’t happen. There is a risk to the vaccine, but not necessarily a reward. Treatment fixes a problem that is currently happening. You see the reward with your own eyes, when you (hopefully) get better.

My dc is fully vaccinated. Following the second dose of mmr, we spent a couple of days on the children’s ward. Dc’s temperature spiked scarily high, and we couldn’t bring it down. I know in my heart of hearts that vaccinating was the right choice, but I will never be able to describe the guilt I felt when he was so poorly. At the time I was incredibly aware that dc may never have caught measles etc, but at that moment they were in hospital because of mine (and dh’s) decision to consent to the vaccine.

I’m currently pregnant, and we have every intention to have this child vaccinated too. BUT having seen how scary a negative reaction to a vaccine can be, I have more understanding about how people can be conflicted about whether they’re doing the right thing.

@blublub

Don’t know why I posted that tbh. I don’t think anyone who asks these questions actually cares about the answers. Just seems to turn into an excuse for people to make themselves feel good about themselves for not being an ‘anti vaxxer’, which is a ludicrous pigeon-holing term in itself. No one is defined wholeheartedly on their medical status or religious or philosophical view points in one particular area of their life. But it seems that’s the point we have reached as a society. I think that is more damaging to society than any disease.

This.

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life. I am not accepting the Covid vaccine as I feel natural immunity is better than a vaccine, although I may change this view as I get older. I have a fully vegan diet. I try to take responsibility for my own health and accept the consequences. I feel I shouldn't have to put myself at risk of a vaccine to help others who don't look after themselves and look to the medical model to save them.

This is genuinely frightening.

I'm increasingly disturbed by the way that the "natural childbirth" lobby (which I have always distrusted) seems to be a gateway drug taking people down antivax rabbit holes. A former friend of mine who was previously pretty sensible got into this via natural childbirth and breastfeeding groups.

Long before all this I've always been highly suspicious of this rhetoric which bangs on about the "medicalization" of birth. It's an entirely positive thing that birth is medical. It's an entirely positive thing that science has been able to deliver the vaccines it has in 18 months. No vaccine is risk free and of course Big Pharma is not a philanthropic industry.

But this whole narrative that Mother Earth and "natural immunity" will provide a natural corrective to disease and therefore that science is not needed is a black whole of sinister bollocks: the point beyond which you can't have a sensible conversation. And it genuinely frightens me how prevalent these ideas have become in our society.

I don't know if the solution is more and better general science teaching in schools or better civics teaching or whatever. Maybe one just has to accept that for some people the allure of appearing "alternative" will always trump common sense and some people will always be seduced by this sort of nonsense. But I do think getting people more interested in science is absolutely essential. I can't go on listening to this stuff.

A friend of mine is completely anti-vax and yet regularly has Botox and fillers. Very much believes that Bill Gates is putting trackers in covid vaccines (and posts all this regularly on social media…) and has recently bought ivermectin tablets on line…..

But this whole narrative that Mother Earth and "natural immunity" will provide a natural corrective to disease and therefore that science is not needed is a black whole of sinister bollocks

This! I have no idea why people think its a good idea to shun tested, regulated and effective modern medicine in favour of 'natural' remedies, an industry, which is largely unregulated.

Nature is a cruel beast, it wants you dead by 40 and expects you to have 12 kids in the hope that two or three might live to see adulthood, this was the reality before scientific advancement and is sadly still the case in some places.

Shunning modern science actually comes from a position of privelege.

This is an interesting question and I don't think it's a one size fits all answer.

I've had my first Pfizer a couple of weeks ago, I'm in Australia so only recently eligible. Since the beginning I've been hesitant, I have an autoimmune disease and was wary of a reaction, also it's new, they obviously don't know of any long term side effects the vaccine may cause. Look at the AZ Covid vaccine, we didn't know at the start that it could cause the clotting issue.

I am duly vaccinated as is my son, however when he was born I refused any drugs or pain relief, and didn't have him take the Vit K jab after birth. I'd weighed up the need and as it was a quick and easy water birth with no possible trauma I did t see the need for injecting my perfect baby with something he didn't need. It's a precautionary infusion.

He was also diagnosed with mild renal reflux, the doctors said he should be given low dose antibiotics twice a day until he was several years old 'just in case' he got a UTI, I started it but felt so uncomfortable with the idea of giving this to his small body I preferred to research the life out of symptoms for uti in small babies and take the risk.

The research on long term use of antibiotics and what damage that can do to a growing baby forming their immune system and gut flora can be serious in the long term. Not that I would suggest anyone else do the same, but we made the decision as parents together privately.

I'm not at all anti vax but do think there are occasions where a measured level of risk is a choice.

There's a difference between people lacking confidence in the Covid vaccine and the conspiracy people.

I would have thought that the line is drawn where the risk of the vaccine (or not taking the medicine) is substantially less than the illness. And peoples' perceptions of that will differ.

So meningitis for me - no brainer to have the vaccine.

Rubella for a boy - leaving aside herd immunity, there would be no point.

Not taking ibuprofen for a headache when you have a stomach ulcer - very sensible and better to take an alternative or wait out the headache.

With the last example, it's also a question of convenience. If I have a headache can I go and lie down until it's gone? Or do I have work this morning and have I, for example, got to go into a school and teach several groups of 30 children? At that point you take the painkillers so you will feel ok for work.

Actually saying there would be "no point" giving a boy the rubella vaccine is somewhat strong. I just meant that I wouldn't consider it to be as serious an illness (having had rubella twice myself as a child before I had the vaccine at 12).