To ask, if you are antivax (not just Covid) but use modern medicine, where is the line?

[LivingInABuildingSite]

Just found out an old friend is totally antivax (not just Covid although that’s how it came up in conversation).

I asked if she’d had her kids vaccinated with the usual baby ones, no, none of them. She said she believes in homeopathy (which I’m not averse to, just wouldn’t rely on). I’m quite shocked but messaged that we’d agree to disagree on this one, as don’t want to wreck the friendship.

So thought I’d ask on here.

Now I know she had c-sections for all of her DC so it got me thinking.

If you don’t agree with using the discoveries of modern medicine in the form of vaccinations to prevent unpleasant but entirely avoidable illnesses, why is it ok to accept similar discoveries such as anaesthesia (and not just in an emergency situation)?

Where is the tipping point of what’s ok to accept and what isn’t?

I’m really interested to hear antivaxxer views, as I’ve only come across those shouting at me outside the vaccine clinic (volunteer) who aren’t up for a conversation about it, and this friend, who I don’t want to push any further.

Taking it a step further, is it ok to trust in a more natural way of things, but wear makeup? Or eat processed food (I’m sure her kids don’t eat 100% vegan, organic, etc)? Or even use the internet?

Where is the line?

@blublub

I think the point is it is doing something that could potentially cause harm. The other stuff has already happened so you’re treating it. My take anyway. You can yell percentages until you’re blue in the face, but if you are responsible for ill effects by having a vaccine, that’s a big difference imo. No matter the balance of risks. You’re not responsible for getting a disease/needing treatment, but you are responsible for injecting yourself with something.

I agree with this.

There are plenty of people who don't agree with blood transfusions, anesthesia, operations etc. Peoolw who are scared of having paracetamol or any kind of medical intervention when they give birth. The distrust of modern medicine isn't confined to vaccinations.

Being anti vax is not being anti medical. It stupid to group people like this.

There's loads of medical treatments that really forgets the standard of 'do no harm' .

Not all science is good, not all scientists can be trusted and big pharma is not a philanthropic organisation.

Vaacines generally are great but vaacine damage is a real risk that gets underplayed.

Medicine, drs and science are great, hence our vastly better lives for some people in the last 100 years. Not all by any stretch if the imagination, ie everyday Americans die of treatable conditions let alone those living in poverty around the world.

My point is its not black and white and being anti vax does not mean being anti medicine, hence the op' friend having had c sections.

I think individual perception of risk plays a big part. Many anti-vaxxers see being vaccinated as a bigger risk than taking their chances against nature.

But when it comes to a diagnosis that is most likely to cause you pain and suffering without treatment the balance v risk shifts to medical intervention being the least risky option.

I know an anti vaxxer (Covid only) who smokes 20 a day and drinks at least a bottle and half of wine a day, occasionally snorts coke, processed takeaways etc!

I also knew a heavy smoker, drug and drinker who wouldn’t take cough and cold medicines.

The mental gymnastics must be Olympic level.

And although I am not anti vax, it is easy to understand how politics, power and economics affects medicine. Just look at feminist studies of how medicine is skewed against women's actual needs in a patriarchal society.

Thanks Labia for thoughtful response. Are your children old enough to discuss vaccination with you yet?
Eg the HPV vaccine is most effective before they become sexually active if I’ve understood it right. Would they be able to ask you to arrange it and would you approve if they wanted it?

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.

Shit, I probably wouldn't be here then and my mother wouldn't have survived my birth. My DS probably wouldn't have survived his birth and probably neither would I.

I love modern medicine but there is part of my wider family that is very into alternative medicine. Older lady got cancer and refused all modern medicine, although did accept modern pain medication at the end thank goodness, but she was at peace with her decision and died honouring the principles she lived by, I guess she felt being true to her beliefs was more important than a slightly longer life.

Same branch of family younger generation, no kids vaxxed etc. They see it as a cost/benefit thing so yes would have life saving surgery/ c section if needed but for most things can get by without. It's just a different line to me I guess.

@blublub

Don’t know why I posted that tbh. I don’t think anyone who asks these questions actually cares about the answers. Just seems to turn into an excuse for people to make themselves feel good about themselves for not being an ‘anti vaxxer’, which is a ludicrous pigeon-holing term in itself. No one is defined wholeheartedly on their medical status or religious or philosophical view points in one particular area of their life. But it seems that’s the point we have reached as a society. I think that is more damaging to society than any disease.

Totally agree

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.

Further to my earlier comment on this I find this a bit unsettling since you are a midwife. My hunch was correct all considering the interventions that were needed when I gave birth - the availability of obstetricians and anaesthetists and surgeons was important to me and for good reason.

@blublub

Don’t know why I posted that tbh. I don’t think anyone who asks these questions actually cares about the answers. Just seems to turn into an excuse for people to make themselves feel good about themselves for not being an ‘anti vaxxer’, which is a ludicrous pigeon-holing term in itself. No one is defined wholeheartedly on their medical status or religious or philosophical view points in one particular area of their life. But it seems that’s the point we have reached as a society. I think that is more damaging to society than any disease.

Go back to the the time before we had the smallpox or polio vaccines. Then the disease would be the more dangerous. Yours is a viewpoint that's only possible now we have the privilege of modem medicine and vaccine programmes.

I wonder how many people refusing the covid jab have vaccinations to go on holiday. And when they do do they ask when the rabies vaccine was licensed, what version it is etc etc. Just because a vaccination has been around for ages doesn't mean it has stayed the same

I'll be brave enough to admit to being what could be described as an anti-vaxxer since I don't post often. 😬 I haven't had the covid vaccine, but I did have covid last year. I have definitely met quite a few people who make it their life's obsession to rant about and protest big pharma, but to be honest most anti-vaxxers I know of, including myself are people who've had really bad experiences with modern medicine and healthcare, and so they're just frightened about who to trust. I don't think it's a principle thing. If I truly believed a medicine would help me get better, I would take it no question. Definitely would take anaesthesia. I wouldn't take anti-depressants because I've known too many people stuck in them forever. So, here would be my list of 'drawing the line'.

Would have chemotherapy for blood cancer. Would probably decline chemotherapy for cancers where it has limited proven success coupled with massive side effects. Would take antibiotics for pneumonia. Have never taken them for tooth infection, or if I've been prescribed them as a "just in case". Very comfortable with surgery as it's not medicine. Wouldn't take hormonal birth control. Wouldn't have an epidural. Would have a c-section.

That's all I can think of!

@midlander88

I'll be brave enough to admit to being what could be described as an anti-vaxxer since I don't post often. 😬 I haven't had the covid vaccine, but I did have covid last year. I have definitely met quite a few people who make it their life's obsession to rant about and protest big pharma, but to be honest most anti-vaxxers I know of, including myself are people who've had really bad experiences with modern medicine and healthcare, and so they're just frightened about who to trust. I don't think it's a principle thing. If I truly believed a medicine would help me get better, I would take it no question. Definitely would take anaesthesia. I wouldn't take anti-depressants because I've known too many people stuck in them forever. So, here would be my list of 'drawing the line'.

Would have chemotherapy for blood cancer. Would probably decline chemotherapy for cancers where it has limited proven success coupled with massive side effects. Would take antibiotics for pneumonia. Have never taken them for tooth infection, or if I've been prescribed them as a "just in case". Very comfortable with surgery as it's not medicine. Wouldn't take hormonal birth control. Wouldn't have an epidural. Would have a c-section.

That's all I can think of!

I find your surgery/epidural/ c section responses interesting.

Major surgery often comes with the need for a wide variety of medications. Anaesthetic agents, painkillers, antibiotics, ant-sickness meds to name a few. So whilst surgery in itself is not medicine you can’t have surgery without medicine.

Similarly c section is routinely done under spinal anaesthetic.

I suppose what I mean by that is, I would have take anything that I believed would result in the benefits outweighing the possible risks.

I think my main concern is taking medicine or medical advice which is prescribed to me by a doctor in good faith, which in years to come turns out to be bad, like a thalidomide for example.

“I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.”

My children were born by csection simply because they were large and I am quite small so avoiding medical intervention would have meant perfectly healthy babies and possibly myself would have died. It doesn’t seem much of a test!

This is a first world problem. Try asking people who struggle to get the most basic of healthcare around the world and they would look at you (not you personally) like you have two heads. Like many first problems, people will always find something to moan about.

I do understand about having had bad experiences with medicine and being frightened about who to trust. A close friend of mine was misdiagnosed with a serious illness and underwent treatment that was unnecessary and has left her with lifelong actual issues! For those of us who have had generally positive experiences, this fear can be hard to relate to. I do also think there is a case for over medicalisation of mental health but then people close to me feel their lives have been improved and in some cases saved by anti depressants, so it isn’t something I talk about much.

To answer your question directly OP, people tarelu out there money where there mouth is, you could call it hypocrisy that most people suffer from. People will take medication to protect them against something that they know will kill them. You don’t hear of many covid anti vaxxers in their 80s, it’s always people who are not at serious risk of dying. People only take this hardline stance against things they know won’t affect them too badly. It’s just a form of protest because after all its first world problems.

I’ve talked about this on a couple of threads. I haven’t had the vaccine due it being tested on animals. I’d happily be vaccinated if one was available that hadn’t been tested on animals so I don’t really see my self as anti vax but have definitely been called that before. I’m also a vegan and have been for a good few years now, before that I was vegetarian. Since being vegan I haven’t take any medication, even when advised to. I use cruelty free products like make up and toiletries.

I’m not sure where my ‘line’ is. My kids had their vaccinations as babies, but I was vegetarian then, not vegan. My kids are now teens so will make any decisions about medications and vaccines themselves. One is a meat eater, one is vegetarian. My partner has had the covid vaccine. He eats some meat/dairy.

As a mum with kids under 18, I suppose I would have to accept life saving medication. Once my kids are adults, I don’t think I will. I hope that we reach a place where medications are not tested on animals. I live a healthy lifestyle, good diet and exercise and just hope I remain healthy.

I opted for home births as I wanted my children to be tested by labour, as I have seen in my work as a nurse and as a midwife babies who have been saved who really were meant to die, leaving them and their families with a poor quality of life.

Well, without a hospital birth and nurses who actually cared my DS would probably not be here now. 11 years later the he is still here and absolutely fun thanks to quick medical intervention. “Tested by labour” is an absolutely terrifying phrase, does this also apply to women getting tested by labour, or just a Spartan rite of passage for newborns. My Great grandmother failed that test and left her family heartbroken .
Please don’t ever go back to nursing.

I think you need to find out why people are “anti vax” and not assume they all have the same reasons. I avoid vaccines and antibiotics because I have had severe adverse reactions to both. I don’t avoid ventolin for my asthma as it works when I have an occasional attack, and I make very occasional use of paracetamol (which I have never reacted to) for severe migraines. I avoid unnecessary medication. The line I draw is I take meds if I have had them in the past and not had adverse reactions, but I do not take anything for minor ailments and I do not take new, trial vaccines or other meds. I have had covid. It was a rough 12 days but I recovered fine.
I wouldn’t call myself anti vax but I am sure you would.

Great question @LivingInABuildingSite
I can think of two different girls I know who are anti vaccine, and very into natural remedies. Fair enough, but they also go on about pizza gate, Hilary Clinton wants to eat your baby and Bill Gates wants to kill us all via a 5G chip.
She'll list the ingredients of vaccines and emphasise the bit about 'cells from dead babies'
The same girls go on massive benders regularly! Snorting all sorts up their noses and popping countless pills.
I just shake my head in disbelief at how they can't see the irony.

People who are truly anti-vax like as in won't vaccinate their kids with any vaccines at all.. usually just have a lack of understanding of how medicine/science/biology/etc work. It's difficult to understand why they might be okay with some types of medical intervention or not others because their logical reasoning is broken.

That's completely different than someone who has weighed risks/rewards of a brand new vaccine using a brand new vaccine technology and deciding to wait having it. That's actually a more logical thought out process (even if they err'd in some parts of their risk/reward analysis).

Now... on another note.. I find people who trust anything and everything that comes from a medical professional or person in uniform or person in a position of authority equally as illogical. They don't understand that the scientific process isn't like mathematics and it's experimental and there are many unknowns and half truths in medicine. A lot of medicine is trial and error, it evolves constantly and not all medical professionals/advice/treatments are equal.