To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

@RaindropsOnRosie

If the 'Karens' don't like being called Karen, they shouldn't act like a Karen. It's a name linked to a stereotype for a reason. The ones who get mad about it are the ones who fit the stereotype.

If their name is actually Karen, they should know the nickname Karen doesn't apply to them unless they fit the stereotype, in which case they probably deserve the nickname.

Absolute shite

They all are, it’s just ‘Karen’ is everywhere right now.

All these names are just a way of stopping women assert themselves for fear of being a ‘Karen’/‘Shaniqua’ etc.

Worst is lots of women use it without realising we’re being pitted against each other.

@RaindropsOnRosie

If the 'Karens' don't like being called Karen, they shouldn't act like a Karen. It's a name linked to a stereotype for a reason. The ones who get mad about it are the ones who fit the stereotype.

If their name is actually Karen, they should know the nickname Karen doesn't apply to them unless they fit the stereotype, in which case they probably deserve the nickname.

How does one “act like a Karen”? Possess a vagina AND an opinion it seems

@TheSlayer

so while the term did originate in referring to white American women who were trying to se the law to harass black people it certainly has evolved

This is not the origin. See the incel origin quoted above. You can see this for yourself if you do a Google image search. The first time Karen appears is in this context and for quite a long time afterwards. A diligent mumsnetter did it on an earlier thread.

the origin is uncertain, to definitively say that it came from one source would be wrong.

No

That’s exactly it @Hoppinggreen

Never complain or assert yourself else you’re a ‘Karen’ is there a make equivalent? Of course not, funny that!

@MorrisZapp

Very true, sofa. We can't stop men from killing each other and us, so let's blame women for somehow making the men do it. Same shit that goes back to the Old Testament.

It's just woman silencing bullshit - try to find a quick way to cut down women with opinions, make it cool and edgy to silence and dismiss them.

When that doesn't work, suggest they're racist hypocrites for not objecting to something they have no experience or knowledge of.

@znaika

I never said this. I said that racism in the uk would have a different flavour. You are being used ro help stoke hate. That is all. The op is either american or being used by americans to put forth an agenda. Are Americans all arseholes? Categorically not but the political machinations controlling the narrative are us based, yes

But they are terms that have been used here. You aren’t reading what people are saying. Yes there are differences between UK and US racism. The answer from anti racist white folk should have been yes I’d challenge them as misogynistic as well thanks for highlighting them, not the denial of the terms even existing in British parlance (because I’ve heard at least one thrown at a girl at school and a variation of another).

Male

I think that the way it is being used at the moment people would aim it at any middle aged woman who is being assertive.

It is heavily used by teen-20 something boys/men to any middle aged woman ime currently

Let's try this another way op. What steps do you think would be more effective to tackle racism and sexism in the UK than calling people Karen?

I think schools should ensure they have at least 50% representation of women in the curriculum, a good balance of black and Asian Brits and a good understanding of the problems caused by empire.

I'd like grammar schools to be merged into the general population and grammar streams to be regularly teacher and outside agency(not tests) monitored, with mentoring in place for children of all backgrounds to ensure opportunity for gifted children regardless of race.

I'd like the minimum wage to be raised and inner cities in particular to build industry that can allow people of all races to earn a livable wage.

I'd like the police to be thoroughly reformed to ensure racial and misogynistic instances are treated with the gravity they deserve.

I'd like statues etc that depict slavers to be either signed as such or be put in museums where all the facts, not just cherry picked ones are layed bare.

I'd like good representation of women and black and Asian Brits on currency in statues and television.

I'd like racist incidents to be fully investigated including how they originated and can be prevented. This would mean using money not just placating words.

All of this can be accomplished without name calling.

I am mixed race and in my 40s. I wasn't sure about the other names suggested, only 2 I have heard of. So I have just asked my teen 17 and my younger on at 10.

Because as far as I was aware 'ling ling' was used to just take the piss out of people of Chinese decent. So it was aimed at taking the piss out of their ethnicity and language. There were equivalents for men. Usually ones, where when you said it together, it said something dereogarty.

Shinequa is general considered sexist, racist and also class-ist.

The rest, non of us had heard of. And I haven't heard the other 2 for quite a while.

Karen is misogynistic because regardless of its use regarding white women who are racist. That's not what's its used for. It's used towards wome of all races, regardless of what they are saying.

Its generally shouted at them by men, that just don't like what they are saying. It commonly has nothing to with race, when it's thrown at women. It's usually when women are talking about women's issues. On social media its often thrown at black women, speaking about issues that impact black women within the black community.

I don't like it. Because it has become the instant put down from misogynistic men and boys who want to silence women. To all women.

People aren't going to claim its racist. Because its originally aimed at white women. Anytime anyone even hints at racisim aimed towards white people, they are ripped apart. So it makes sense its seen as primarily misogynistic rather than racist.

MorrisZapp
Very true, sofa. We can't stop men from killing each other and us, so let's blame women for somehow making the men do it. Same shit that goes back to the Old Testament.

It's just woman silencing bullshit - try to find a quick way to cut down women with opinions, make it cool and edgy to silence and dismiss them

Yes, Yes, Yes!!! So glad some people get it!

@brokenbiscuitsx

That’s exactly it *@Hoppinggreen*

Never complain or assert yourself else you’re a ‘Karen’ is there a make equivalent? Of course not, funny that!

You're going to be Karensplained by people telling you that the male Karen is Brad.

Which literally nobody uses, and isn't a meme. And isn't hateful or used to belittle men who speak out. And isn't a popular name in the UK. And isn't in even the teeniest way comparable to Karen.

As it was originally coined, "Karen", when referring to a white woman who weaponises her privilege to harm or put Black people at risk, isn't misogynistic. It describes women who call the police on Black kids running a lemonade stand or lying to the police to say that a Black man is threatening their safety when he's just existing in a public park minding his own business. It's a very specific kind of thing that (some) white women do and it's been a problem since the days of slavery in the US through to false accusations leading to lynching in the middle of the last century through to the kinds of incidents I've described today.

I (a mixed-race woman) don't use it because it's lost it's meaning because so many people have used it just to refer to a middle-aged woman who dares to have an attitude or an opinion or to be in a bad mood in public. That's misogynistic and it's also just played out and not funny. My own fucking kid called ME "Karen" the other day because I wanted a different table in a restaurant (I asked nicely don't worry) and my other kid told her she was being a Karen for calling me a Karen and then we laughed.

I do have to say as someone who grew up in the states in a Black family, hearing "Shaniqua" thrown around by people who I assume are white in this thread - even though I know you're describing a problem- makes me feel really uncomfortable. You don't need to repeatedly repeat a slur just to talk about it. You can just say "names used as shorthand for negative stereotypes" and we will all know what you mean.

@paddlingon

My thoughts OP are that it can be useful to consider who benefits from something.

Who benefits from trying to pit white women against BAME women?

It isn't any women that is for sure.

That's were I am heading. Who is doing this? What are they gaining from it?

And I totally fucking object to having to think like that!

@cinammonbuns I find that really sad. You have never seen women set aside their usual daily round to support other women?

That explains your ire.

[quote Spindless]@Faithless12 I would, and I do when confronted with racism in real life, casual or otherwise. I have a black colleague who was being treated terribly by her then manager. I knew her and the quality of her work well. I suspected he didn’t like the colour of her skin. She wouldn’t report it, and I understand why, so I did. A short while later he left. I don’t say this to act like some saviour but to demonstrate that as infrequent as these situations may be to me, I will never not act when I do see them.[/quote]
Thank you. I wish someone like you worked where my friend did, she has experienced some pretty horrific racism in the workplace.

@MorrisZapp Yep, I’ve heard Brad/Chad used on the odd Instagram Reel but never seen anything like the extent or vitriol of ‘Karen’

Drip a very diligent mumsnetter did a good amount of research into its origins on another in thread. All the evidence found pointed to incel origins.

But regardless of what it once stood for, it's now overwhelmingly used to shut women up when discussing non race based issues.

Which makes it misogynistic.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I find that really sad. You have never seen women set aside their usual daily round to support other women?

I think a lot of men are surprised by how much women support each other.

[quote brokenbiscuitsx]@MorrisZapp Yep, I’ve heard Brad/Chad used on the odd Instagram Reel but never seen anything like the extent or vitriol of ‘Karen’[/quote]
Same, a male American colleague first told me about Karen's and Chad's a few years back as a reddit thing, but I've not seen it used to anything like the extent or vitriol that Karen is. Not even close.

Naughty Saskia

Feck, rogue apostrophes. Bloody phone.

@cinammonbuns no woman who comes from communism or oppression woukd ever say they don't know what it is to stand with other women or reference class as being where they loyalty lay. So you dont undertsand this game as I do. People are using your feelings of hurt, pride and and fear to make you angry

Yep. There have been stereotypes on other races for absolutely years, but nothing gets outrage like a white person being insulted in the same way.
Even though they weren't called Karen's when I worked in retail, we had "One of those" at least once a day, a Karen before they were named Karens. They would come in, act better than everyone else, try to make you feel bad about yourself and would think they had authority because they didn't work behind that till. "I'm the customer and I am not satisfied with this service"
And it's not an age thing. Look online and you'll see "Karen" as a label for any age, a viral video last week showed a Karen in her 20s screaming in a shop over a black woman. Or if you look on Facebook and see mother's groups where that one mum always comes out and says someone else is a bad mum for daring to feed her children frozen food, people call her a Karen. If you're offended but don't think you do that, then why are you offended? It's not aimed at you?

OP I think you're very right.