To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

@paddlingon

My thoughts OP are that it can be useful to consider who benefits from something.

Who benefits from trying to pit white women against BAME women?

It isn't any women that is for sure.

I think it would be a lot harder to pit white and black women against each other if white women acknowledged the racism faced by black women at the hands of white women without trying to bury it in a whole heap of whataboutary.

I'm not seeing much evidence of that.

*My thoughts OP are that it can be useful to consider who benefits from something.
Who benefits from trying to pit white women against BAME women?
It isn't any women that is for sure.

That's were I am heading. Who is doing this? What are they gaining from it?

And I totally fucking object to having to think like that!*

What you divide you weaken. Have women pitted against each other to deflect from men’s issues. To stop us asserting ourselves.

I’m sure many a woman has now thought twice about complaining in a shop or a restaurant for fear of being called a ‘Karen’

Goldie I'm sure you've seen and heard men behaving appallingly? What common first name do you use to stereotype them?

@MorrisZapp i wish we had a mumsnet salute that i could give to you. Sorry you have this crap ((

TheSlayer

I agree that its misogynistic.

We have young boys calling teachers "Karen" when they get told off or put in detentions.

This is not something that is going to easily go away.

But a quick search has pointed to several different probable origins, from stand up, TV shows, the US Black community and reddit.

No one has yet explained how calling women names for having opinions nothing to do with race, or complaining about service in the UK (unlike the us, the service industry in the UK is largely white working class) helps stop racism in the UK.

Calling people names on social media might make you feel like a good social justice warrior but does absolutely nothing in the real world to tackle racism, or indeed sexism.

@znaika nobody is using me for anything. I can assure you that I think for myself. I come from a history of oppression, please do not think that you know me because you do not.

@Wroxie sorry if I made you uncomfortable. I am black myself and the name has been used towards me as well a similarly derogatory name. I was using it to reference but can see why it is upsetting to se wit thrown around.

I think it would be a lot harder to pit white and black women against each other if white women acknowledged the racism faced by black women at the hands of white women without trying to bury it in a whole heap of whataboutary.

I'm not seeing much evidence of that.

I'll bite. What would you like me to post, to say, to do? Specifically?

In real life I speak up, I have to in part of my work, it's part and parcel of the job.

Online I tend not to as I find self justification to be pointless - see above exchanges. The angriest , loudest voice gets angrier and louder and discussion stops. People tend not to act like that in real life. In 20+ years I have never had a BAME woman, colleague or client, ask me why I, as a white woman, am virtue signalling, lying, hiding something by mere dint of being there - but on this thread, all of those!

I live in an almost totally white community. The non black people in my city are mostly of Asian ethnicity.

If I ask for examples of white feminists being racist to black women I will be told it isn't possible to supply the examples as that's not the job of black women to do the research for me.

Googling has led me to either not speaking up for black women or speaking for them. Both can be interpreted as racist and as anti racist. In all honesty I don't find myself in 'feminist spaces' where I could do this behaviour anyway.

Are we back to the white feminism argument?

@CuriousaboutSamphire oh no I’ve seen it occasionally but in very serious situations I think most women prioritise other allegiances.

I get pretty pissed off being accused of whatabouttery when ops bloody post was an exercise in whatabouttery.
I'm a good 'allie'. I changed our school curriculum to have much more diversity, even though I had to fight a lot of male staff to let go of dead white guy content.

I've deliberately advised other teachers to include black and Asian authors and drop white British males. I'm really proud of some of the changes I've made: children learning about Malala instead of Christopher Columbus etc.

I've stuck up for colleagues and friends who face very real racism.

But somehow, when something effects me personally, as a woman, if I object I'm racist. Even if it's something that effects other races too.

Especially when it's people who do bugger all for equality demanding I don't notice sexism.

[quote znaika]@MorrisZapp i wish we had a mumsnet salute that i could give to you. Sorry you have this crap (([/quote]
Oh don't be sorry! I love my name, christ I'm sure I can see off a risible meme. I'm absolutely proud of the name my parents chose for me.

Wish I could see off cultural misogyny but I'm working on it.

@Hoppinggreen It's a very Karen stereotype that all women labelled Karen have vaginas.

But you're right, having an opinion that is harmful generally does make one a Karen.

I don't see why people are worried that racists, transphobes, nazis, ableists, etc are being called 'Karen'. If it's such a bad name, surely they deserve it?

[quote RaindropsOnRosie]@Hoppinggreen It's a very Karen stereotype that all women labelled Karen have vaginas.

But you're right, having an opinion that is harmful generally does make one a Karen.

I don't see why people are worried that racists, transphobes, nazis, ableists, etc are being called 'Karen'. If it's such a bad name, surely they deserve it?[/quote]
Now we get to it. Toodle pip.

@MorrisZapp I wasn't debating, I was sharing my opinion based on my experiences and thoughts.
Basic communication and understanding of simple concepts not your strong point then.

So what constitutes harmful opinion?

People that consider animals to be ok to be killed for meat. That's harmful. Are they Karen's.

Or is it just reserved for people with unpopular ideas like women's refuges and prisons should be for women.

[quote cinammonbuns]@CuriousaboutSamphire oh no I’ve seen it occasionally but in very serious situations I think most women prioritise other allegiances.[/quote]
Ah! It might be me then. But then I do work/volunteer with a lot of women who do set aside family time to work in a group of loosely linked community charities - from food bank, soup kitchen to legal advice, benefits advice and DV units.

Over the last 20 odd years I have worked with an ever changing client group in a female support organisation - from Asian women, to Afro Caribbean women, on to Eastern European women and now a range of women fleeing many wars etc - Syrian, Somali etc. Many of those women have absolutely nothing, may be in an abusive relationship, many are illegal immigrants, most have no access to money and yet many of them set aside time to help others with things like translation, reassurance, support etc.

Some go on to train with us and become support workers in other organisations.

And none of them have ever questioned why me, a white woman in her middle age, is part of a charity that acts as a gateway to further information, or feeds them. Not one.

And yes, I am acutely aware that all of the above will read like virtue signalling. But it is part of what I do. Part of what many women, of any age, ethnicity etc, I know do!

And some of us started at Greenham Common as teenagers

Harmful opinions, oh lord.

@DoolallyLully

And let's not forget "Ok boomer"

If people see racism they need to call it out at the time. Not use it as an excuse to stereotype and name call 45+ women.

@Delphinia

If people see racism they need to call it out at the time. Not use it as an excuse to stereotype and name call 45+ women.

Exactly. Not one person has been able to explain how 'karen' is more clear and effective than 'racist'

Possibly OP. Not sure how your post helps tackle either racism or sexism though. What change are you hoping to see in the world, and how do you hope this observation will help?

@TheSlayer

No one has yet explained how calling women names for having opinions nothing to do with race, or complaining about service in the UK (unlike the us, the service industry in the UK is largely white working class) helps stop racism in the UK.

Calling people names on social media might make you feel like a good social justice warrior but does absolutely nothing in the real world to tackle racism, or indeed sexism.

Good post.

@PiffleWiffleWoozle

Possibly OP. Not sure how your post helps tackle either racism or sexism though. What change are you hoping to see in the world, and how do you hope this observation will help?

I've already asked. Don't expect a reply any time soon.