To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

Sort of tired of these goady posts. It's misogynistic and ageist and demeaning. Who cares if Karen is white or purple?

@Spindless

I also wonder why this word has fostered so much outrage on MN when other issues that affect non white women are not even given a second glance.

I can talk and get outraged about what is in my sphere of experience as a white woman living in a predominantly white area with white friends. That’s the reality.

I’ve never heard the other names used but fail to see how they aren’t both racist and misogynistic.

All of this

It's all offensive. It's just that the other examples had not reached my ears.

[quote cinammonbuns]**@DeleteSystem32* agreed. @CuriousaboutSamphire* you have a very selective memory. The everyone in bold is especially interesting when plenty defended her.[/quote]
It was in italics, not bold. And I have already agreed I could have worded it better. But nonetheless, the tone of those threads was as I described it.

But stop nitpicking. The issue isn't about individual issues, is it? It's about our language being inherently misogynistic, about SM being a fucking great vehicle for unfiltered bollocks like this, for the normalising of a whole host of nastiness . Nobody would disagree that those names are all misogynistic and racist - apart from the white women cos we have to check our privilege - and often ageist.

My point was why the fuck are we - or rather, are you - choosing to make this a more divisive issue?

Why divide 'woman' into ever more splintered categories? In this case it simply dilutes any response, derails a discussion.

ALL WOMEN are affected by such stupid naming conventions.

All women can be 'Karen' - that's misogyny

The other names, not heard them but have nor reason to douubt they are real and used in the same dismissive and patronising maner - are misogynist and racist

I am capable of challenging them all, whenever I see them. I don't have to make a choice, do I? Or would I be seen as virtue signalling, as a white woman if I did?

Can you see why I think some of this is weirdly divisive and only serves to reduce the effectiveness and the volume of the voice of women?

And I wonder if it deliberate...

@silentpool

Sort of tired of these goady posts. It's misogynistic and ageist and demeaning. Who cares if Karen is white or purple?

I think Karen's ethnic background does matter when you take into account the other names used to denigrate women from other backgrounds, because then you can see a pattern of misogyny. As I said upthread, they can all be interpreted as 'shut up, bitch'.

The man who invented the Karen thing to get people to have a go at his ex wife must be absolutely delighted with how it's turned out and that people are using it to have a go at older women in general. He must be laughing his head off.

I've never encountered the others but would say they are as misogynistic as Karen now is.

I say 'now is' because what Karen started off as, and what it has become, are quite different.

I'm sure if someone on MN tried to shut a poster down by calling them Shaniqua or Ling Ling there would be utter outrage and an immeninent banning. Just cos we havent seen it on here doesn't mean people only care about Karen. They react to Karen because they see Karen all the time.

@StatisticallyChallenged I think you were the one who failed to read @Spindless comments actually. She was not just talking about the use of the words ‘Shaniqua’ and ‘Ling Ling’ she was speaking in general terms that she focuses on issues which affect white women of her class that she knows. Which is the truth of most people, not just white women of course.
They focus on what affects them and the people like them directly.

It is just an honest departure for the lies often repeated on here that people care as much about the issues do BAME women as the issue of white women like themselves. It’s simply not true.

The honesty was refreshing.

[quote cinammonbuns]@CuriousaboutSamphire ah so additional categories are fine when talking about sex but not when talking about distinguishing by race? What? As if race does not have a big an impact by how you are fired by society. You clearly want to minimise the reality that white women do and have a long history of using their tears to get non white people into legal trouble or to garner sympathy. If you refuse to acknowledge that because you believe it will divide women then you won’t get anywhere. Women are already divided.

Also I can post as much as I want. Who made you the thread police?[/quote]
Don't make things up.

It makes you look daft!

And I wonder if it deliberate...

Psst - it is!

As I suspected you cant be rational. I posted earlier this morning about an uptick in really hate filled rhetoric about the English that is seemingly ok. It is social media phenomenon that that haa escalated as people have more time to post crap due to lockdowns. It was there before though. What i say is the op is transparently posting from a us pov directing ire at british women using us cultural references. This is not just some thing that happens.. People are sowing division on purpose. Of course some British women avidly consume us media output and know the tropes. That is not the point.

You're being dragged into to this and it is designwd to make you feel aggrieved and slighted but its propoganda. Take it from. russian - i understand this game better than you

[quote cinammonbuns]@znaika no one is using it as a gotcha moment for anything. We are simply pointing out that just because you have not heard of something doesn’t mean it exists. I have heard both Ling Ling and Shaniqua used in the U.K. by British people.[/quote]
Saying you've never heard of them is not saying they don't exist

I don't think anyone has said they don't exist

I agree 100%!

Regardless of how it started it is now being used for any Middle Aged woman expressing her opinion

I even catch my teenagers muttering it at me when I give my opinion or ask them to do something

It is lazy stereotyping just because other names and stereotypes for women are out of use.

Therefore it is mysogynistic and ageist, and probably racist too if only directed at white women.
If other names are being used for women of other races then they also should be called out as women have fought hard to not be treated as unimportant and too often new names creep in to replace the old names.

This is more about trying to stop women in general being treated as dumbed down rather than a race thing

@Spindless

I hope you take the honesty in the spirit it’s meant *@cinammonbuns*. I care about the experience of BAME colleagues, and my son’s black friend. I check my privilege and my bias. But the reality is their experiences are too far removed from mine for me to put outrage for them into action. I’m not ambivalent, I’m just exhausted with what life is throwing at me on other fronts

Asking for more honesty here, if you were to see racist trope being posted on here (meaning mumsnet) would you challenge it? While I understand being exhausted by the world I also recognise I am lucky that I get to by angry, some of my friends can’t and constantly have to tread an invisible line where anything they say is either tone policed to hell and back or they’re an angry black woman.

Take it from. russian - i understand this game better than you

I think Karen is misogynistic but I think those other names are racist and would never use them either. Luckily I haven't seen them used much but I am sure they are just as misogynistic too. Can't we agree they are all bad?

@CuriousaboutSamphire why divide the human race into women vs men. Your logic is so completely flawed it’s laughable. The reason women are split is because there are differ issues affecting different women based on their race and their class and disability for example. To treat women as a monolith is unhelpful and frankly idiotic.

I’m sure if I stated I wanted to say white women and men are treated the same by society you would jump on my with data and evidence to prove this is not true. Which is correct. So why are you so resistant to the simple and obvious fact that there is the same discrepancies between white and non white women.

It seems you are hiding something.

And the only person who has lied in this conversation and has made themselves look daft is yourself when you claimed that everybody was against the woman in the park.

It isn't misogynistic, it's a name given to entitled racist white American women who harass black people and think they can get away with it. That's how it originated.

mn won't let me quote this post from the tart of the thread, sorry if it's already been mentioned but no, that's not how it originated - it comes from a misogynist reddit post about a guy hating his ex wife

that post was deleted however the subreddit "Fuck You Karen" was created dec 2017

it's white men hating on white women before any of the other purported usages came about.

knowyourmeme.com/memes/karen

ps all the other uses mentioned (shaniqua etc) are both racist and misogynist how is that even in question

@znaika

As I suspected you cant be rational. I posted earlier this morning about an uptick in really hate filled rhetoric about the English that is seemingly ok. It is social media phenomenon that that haa escalated as people have more time to post crap due to lockdowns. It was there before though. What i say is the op is transparently posting from a us pov directing ire at british women using us cultural references. This is not just some thing that happens.. People are sowing division on purpose. Of course some British women avidly consume us media output and know the tropes. That is not the point.

You're being dragged into to this and it is designwd to make you feel aggrieved and slighted but its propoganda. Take it from. russian - i understand this game better than you

They aren’t. I am a British woman and I can categorically say that 20 years ago Shaniqua was used as a slur towards black girls. Just because you haven’t heard them doesn’t mean they don’t exist nor that they are only US specific. Let’s stop pretending that racism is a US import…

[quote cinammonbuns]@CuriousaboutSamphire why divide the human race into women vs men. Your logic is so completely flawed it’s laughable. The reason women are split is because there are differ issues affecting different women based on their race and their class and disability for example. To treat women as a monolith is unhelpful and frankly idiotic.

I’m sure if I stated I wanted to say white women and men are treated the same by society you would jump on my with data and evidence to prove this is not true. Which is correct. So why are you so resistant to the simple and obvious fact that there is the same discrepancies between white and non white women.

It seems you are hiding something.

And the only person who has lied in this conversation and has made themselves look daft is yourself when you claimed that everybody was against the woman in the park.[/quote]
I'll happily leave you to it.

You illustrating my point beautifully!

Starting a thread like this makes you just as bad as those that use the name OP. What is your motivation?

[quote cinammonbuns]@CuriousaboutSamphire why divide the human race into women vs men. Your logic is so completely flawed it’s laughable. The reason women are split is because there are differ issues affecting different women based on their race and their class and disability for example. To treat women as a monolith is unhelpful and frankly idiotic.

I’m sure if I stated I wanted to say white women and men are treated the same by society you would jump on my with data and evidence to prove this is not true. Which is correct. So why are you so resistant to the simple and obvious fact that there is the same discrepancies between white and non white women.

It seems you are hiding something.

And the only person who has lied in this conversation and has made themselves look daft is yourself when you claimed that everybody was against the woman in the park.[/quote]
You're contradicting yourself here.

@znaika thank you for your ‘help’. But I promise you that I have heard a lot more actual propaganda than you have due to the country I am from. You are the one who is irrational and claimed I had an agenda because I said I had a different experience to you.

There has always been division and it does not need to be sowed.

I think it is a ridiculous term, and I just feel sorry for all those ladies who are called 'Karen', which actually is rather a nice name.