To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

I don’t use the term Karen but why would I object to that woman using the term if it empowered her?

No one is objecting to that use. Although I still think clear language is better to get a clear message across.

The objection is to the more widespread British use of it as a misogynistic slur to stop a woman expressing a (non racist) opinion.

I'm not sure that that you have thought that through phishy.

I can think of several situations where threatened people might feel empowered by using slurs against someone who is threatening them.
It wouldn't make using the slur right.

Slurs don't become okay because the person using them finds them empowering.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@phishy When I say smartphones are in the top 5 inventions of ALL time this is exactly what I mean. Of course the harassment of Black people is as old as time itself but that we can now document and share it is absolutely phenomenal. Amy Cooper et al. Thank heavens for smartphones.[/quote]
Yep, as Will Smith said: Racism is not getting worse, it’s getting filmed.

@TheSlayer

White men kill black men in the USA, so British women must accept misogynistic slur.

Your logic does not resemble our earth logic.

White men do not even kill black men in large numbers.

It’s an inconvenient truth, look at FBI stats and you’ll see that black men kill other black men.

Sadly, the white American liberal either doesn’t care or wants to keep pushing a narrative that isn’t backed up by the facts.

And none of this has anything to do with the Karen meme.

I absolutely agree with you, OP. I disagree with the term Karen but there was no outrage for the many years black women have been called Shaniqua.

@phishy

How exactly has slagging off white women empowered black women to document white men murdering black men? confused

It’s not about ‘slagging off’. It’s about being able to speak up when being abused and call that person out. I’ve seen videos where a black woman has been able to say in a shaky voice ‘you’re a Karen’ to the white woman abusing her.

I don’t use the term Karen but why would I object to that woman using the term if it empowered her?

Because it's a misogynist term.

We are all women. We should all abhor misogyny. It doesn't help any of us.

I don’t use the term Karen but why would I object to that woman using the term if it empowered her?

But @phishy that’s not how it’s being applied in the majority usage of it in the UK. It’s being used predominantly by men to shut women up who aren’t being racist, just strident about issues such a bins and rats. Or your teenage son leaving his crap everywhere. We are answering the OPs specific question, not doubting the validity of the origin.

America has a specific problem with white women using their femininity to get black people in trouble. See To Kill a Mocking Bird.
Whilst I've no doubt that white women can do this, and have done this, it feels like this phenomenon is being mythologised in some way, a cautionary tale for modern America. To Kill a Mockingbird is a highly moralistic book that is read like a kind of guide for right and wrong and taught in high schools across America. On the surface it's a story about fairness and injustice, but I think it also taps into misogynistic male fears around female sexuality - that we're all evil, manipulative bitches, basically, if we show any sexual desire of our own and try to act on it. All these names for women, whatever their race, are about shaming women for asserting themselves, being lower class, being sexual. I hate how it turns women against each other.

@Pastrydame

Phishy, in that scenario why would "you're a racist" not have done just as well?

It’s very intimidating when confronted by a racist. A part of you just wants to run away.

I’m at an age where I can tell people to fuck off, that is my preferred response. But it’s clear from YouTube that many women can’t do that but do feel they can say Karen.

@Spindless

Except the Karen/can I speak to the manager haircut meme is aimed at white working class women.

You can’t presume to know what makes someone else uncomfortable, or even how something makes them feel at all.

No Karen isn’t working class. She’s middle class, upper middle class in the American sense. Not extremely educated but still financially secure.

@TheSlayer

I don’t use the term Karen but why would I object to that woman using the term if it empowered her?

No one is objecting to that use. Although I still think clear language is better to get a clear message across.

The objection is to the more widespread British use of it as a misogynistic slur to stop a woman expressing a (non racist) opinion.

Then surely we’re in agreement? I have never used the term myself but I don’t object to it in certain circumstances.

Shaniqua is not widely used on social media or in real life but if I encountered it on social media I would report it for being racist as sexist comments are rarely dealt with.
I often report comments on FB about Dianne Abbott, but they get left up because they are usually misogynistic (but no doubt driven by race).

Someone also asked if we could not keep repeating it so I will only use it this once.

@Spindless

I don’t use the term Karen but why would I object to that woman using the term if it empowered her?

But @phishy that’s not how it’s being applied in the majority usage of it in the UK. It’s being used predominantly by men to shut women up who aren’t being racist, just strident about issues such a bins and rats. Or your teenage son leaving his crap everywhere. We are answering the OPs specific question, not doubting the validity of the origin.

I think the men who do that are scum, but the internet doesn’t have borders, and we are affected by what’s happening in other countries.

It’s not about ‘slagging off’. It’s about being able to speak up when being abused and call that person out. I’ve seen videos where a black woman has been able to say in a shaky voice ‘you’re a Karen’ to the white woman abusing her

I don’t use the term Karen but why would I object to that woman using the term if it empowered her

Those are in the minority. It’s mostly men, some with an incel vibe, pushing the Karen meme.

They, of course, hate any woman who dares to speak up for herself, particularly if she happens to be middle aged and of average attractiveness.

You love to see it

@UsedUpUsername not in the UK sense. You simply don’t see middle/upper middle class women with that haircut. You just don’t. OP has posted on a uk based site about the reaction of white women being called Karen. The context is completely different to the US. In the US, “Karen” might ask to speak to the manager because she’s a racist who wants to get a black personal fired. In the Uk, “Karen” is a woman with an opinion. I’m a white middle aged women. This is my experience.

I've never seen it used in the way you've described in the UK.
And that's what people object to. People are using the word as a shield to hide their misogyny by.
If it was regularly used in the UK to 'call out racism' and not as a misogynistic slur then obviously it would change people's view of it.
Personally I don't think a Christian name should be used in such a disrespectful way when words like 'racist' do it much better.

Exactly @phishy. Those men are misogynistic scum. Which goes to answer OP’s question. Her question wasn’t about the original usage - I don’t think a person here disputes why that arose and isn’t appalled. Her question was about its application to white women. And that’s where the meaning had evolved. Put bluntly, we’re not claiming it’s misogynistic because we’re white, we’re claiming it’s misogynistic because we’re women, and it is.

OP was barking up the wrong tree this time.

In the US, “Karen” might ask to speak to the manager because she’s a racist who wants to get a black personal fired

No, in the US (as in the UK) Karen is a middle-aged woman with a questionable haircut with strong opinions.

The meme wasn’t about racism. It described a certain type of person you might encounter in customer service. It was primarily pushed by young men on Reddit.

@Novelusername

America has a specific problem with white women using their femininity to get black people in trouble. See To Kill a Mocking Bird. Whilst I've no doubt that white women can do this, and have done this, it feels like this phenomenon is being mythologised in some way, a cautionary tale for modern America. To Kill a Mockingbird is a highly moralistic book that is read like a kind of guide for right and wrong and taught in high schools across America. On the surface it's a story about fairness and injustice, but I think it also taps into misogynistic male fears around female sexuality - that we're all evil, manipulative bitches, basically, if we show any sexual desire of our own and try to act on it. All these names for women, whatever their race, are about shaming women for asserting themselves, being lower class, being sexual. I hate how it turns women against each other.

Isn’t Mayella a victim? She is sexually and physically abused.

Even in the US it has moved from centering racism to a more general shut up older woman idea.
And I think it is a rubbish idea idea to use one female name as the concept of racism in the US.

Of all the race issues here complex, deep and large as they are the only thing that comes with a handy meme is crossover appeal is one centering middle aged women.

I'm not for one moment saying they can't be part of the problem but the appeal of the meme doesn't lie in the fact it addresses the largest race issue in the USA.

It's appeal lies in so many other groups being able to take a pop at older, more assertive women.
Woman who should know their place and station and just be quiet.

@Spindless

Exactly *@phishy*. Those men are misogynistic scum. Which goes to answer OP’s question. Her question wasn’t about the original usage - I don’t think a person here disputes why that arose and isn’t appalled. Her question was about its application to white women. And that’s where the meaning had evolved. Put bluntly, we’re not claiming it’s misogynistic because we’re white, we’re claiming it’s misogynistic because we’re women, and it is.

OP was barking up the wrong tree this time.

I’m glad we agree on original usage , but many are saying the term should never be used, and I do wonder if they would feel that way if it had taken off to describe a black woman. So I think OP does have a point.

That may be your experience, but it's not universal.

I just had a chat with a misogynist about this over on the US site makeupalley.com. Judge for yourself how this dude and his friends defended the colonisation of women's space while being a total utter oblivious sexist and rape apologist arsehole: www.makeupalley.com/board/2/threads/15903765

Isn’t Mayella a victim? She is sexually and physically abused.
Yes, and that seems to be glossed over and all people remember is the white woman lying to get a black man in trouble.

@Novelusername

Isn’t Mayella a victim? She is sexually and physically abused. Yes, and that seems to be glossed over and all people remember is the white woman lying to get a black man in trouble.

But the point is, she wasn’t abused by the black man.

Personally, I think it's empty virtue signalling.
If you want to help address racism in the UK, help with initiatives to get young people of all backgrounds into your industry.
Set up clubs, skill and social groups to encourage cohesion and social balance.
Don't use problematic language and encourage others to do the same. Vote for policy that directly influences opportunity and poverty. Hold to account institutions that have policies that harm minorities and classes.

No one ever changed the world by making snide comments on social media.