To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

How many women in their 20s or younger are called Karen?

Lots and lots, on YouTube.

Who cares how it originated, it has extended far far beyond that now and its completely unacceptable. The whole 'it's only because it's about white women' sounds like an excuse for hatred to me. And yet again it's women who get their names abused, funny how it's never men's names used to call out racism...that is misogyny right there. The fact that the abuse is aimed at white women doesn't make the misogyny any more acceptable FFS.

Those other names you mentioned are nowhere near as widespread as the 'Karen' thing and had they been more widely used I expect there would've been called out as racist, sexist abuse a lot more (I certainly would've). But Karen is everywhere and I see it in comments all the time, just today I've seen several..things like "oh a Karen being a Karen" "shut up Karen" and "would you like to see the manager" (aimed at someone called Karen who said something completely inoffensive).

@FrankButchersDickieBow

The names you use OP are racist, classist and sexist.

Karen is used to shut women up.

I work with a few Karen's funnily enough. All middle-aged, all working class, one of whom is black.

I feel sorry that these lovely women's names have been monopolised by sexist men and women with internalised misogyny - the kind of people who would call women sluts/slags/bitch etc.

Agree with this 👆 There are a certain type of people who've been provided with 'acceptable' ways to express their pent up misogyny whilst also portraying themselves as lefty good guys. People like OP are providing them with that outlet by excusing it. And don't fool yourself that it is 'only' white women on the receiving end of their hatred either.

@Pastrydame lots and lots. The last few 'viral Karen' stories have been about women in their 20s. 22 year old Miya Ponsetto is one of them.

@Clymene yes I agree. My point was really more that supporting hibo is a wonderful thing to do, but not everyone is able to financially support every just cause. It was a bit of a pointless comment to be honest. Just because I would love to support more causes but am on a tight budget.

I get a bit annoyed with being constantly accused of feministing wrong. I've given up a lot of my free time for equality.
I virtually rewrote two short term cover yeargroups schemes to include a range of voices: black, Asian, women, disabled. I didn't get paid for it. I did it because I wanted to do good.

I've put a lot of time into providing free sports/childcare for people- targeting disadvantaged groups in particular. Again free

And I give money where I can to various causes. I read relevant books: Hobo, Akala, Lammy.

And I hear others on this thread doing selfless things, but they're supposed to perform good deeds silently and not protest or call out injustice to them. Just others.

But somehow, the moment I want equality for a disadvantaged group I'm a part of, apparently I should suck it up and stop being selfish.

I'm never going to say misogyny is ok because racism exists. I'm not going to be ok with sexism because homophobia exists. Why am I only allowed to care about others, not women and girls?!?

@HauteGirlSummer

Why are people saying Karen is ageist? I've seen it used for white racist and entitled women of ALL ages. Definitely not an ageist slur. As with any slur, I don't agree with it but I agree with OP that it's not misogynistic. No one is trying to tell white women to shut up and not have a voice by calling them Karen. It's more a case of calling them out on social media for racist behaviour.

That is exactly how it's used though. I've seen comments directed at women named Karen who've posted completely boring inoffensive comments and I have also seen "shut up Karen" type comments aimed at women over boring petty disagreements...not racist, nor offensive. Just different opinions. So no, you're wrong. There was a post the other day of a woman who was so hurt by this she changed her name. No excuses, it's unacceptable and I will stand by anyone who calls it out.

@Bloodypunkrockers I haven't seen it used to shut women up generally though.

Only seen it used to refer to a white women who've shown racist and entitled behaviour and have been caught red-handed esp on social media.
Which btw I still don't agree with because a slur is hate speech.

Another thing I wonder about is how angry men would respond to people filming them with the intent of putting it on the internet.

I would never be brave enough to film a man, no matter how awful they were being, in case I got made a target.

The people who filmed the George Floyd incident were very brave. I would not have been able to film or argue with volatile men with guns.

Having a son myself, that he called for his mother absolutely broke my heart. I think using a 'nickname' to describe the appalling racism he received really trivialises the problem. It's not funny. So why is it being presented as such. Haha Carole took the kids.

I don't think it's an effective way to tackle racism at all.
Call it out with appropriate, clear language. Call it what it is.

That's funny when people are so anti racist that they are actively racist. Hispanic* people, Arabs and half of Asia (part of my own family included) are white.

@BlaBlaSmthSmth tbh only on mumsnet have I seen people using the word like this. And on the posts I've seen it's usually (a white woman) saying 'Oh I've been such a Karen today AIBU?' (Why anyone would ever refer to themselves as one is beyond me 🙄)

Usually all posters will say you're being unreasonable for using the Karen slur alone.

Never seen anyone use it to tell anyone to bore off seeing as it usually gets such a strong reaction on here.
I don't agree with its use either way as it doesn't solve anything.

[quote HauteGirlSummer]@Bloodypunkrockers I haven't seen it used to shut women up generally though.

Only seen it used to refer to a white women who've shown racist and entitled behaviour and have been caught red-handed esp on social media.
Which btw I still don't agree with because a slur is hate speech.
[/quote]
Blimey, you must have a different internet to the one I have then. I literally this moment typed 'Karen meme' into Google and hit images.

I scrolled through oceans and oceans of this kind of derogatory shite, with all sorts of extras about mega Karens, cat Karens, Karenovirus etc. Such wit.

I can't see any that reference racism at all.

Well I'm going by the slang definition of Karen:

Karen is a pejorative term for a woman seeming to be entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal. The term also refers to memes depicting White women who use their privilege to demand their own way.

I'm shocked that some posters think using the term 'Karen' is ok TBH

OP, your post is so far removed from the reality in the UK that it's difficult to grasp what you are trying to say.

On another note, what's wrong with asking to speak to the manager?

You've literally never seen the Karen haircut on all your time on social media? Or seen these memes before? There are thousands of them.

Could it be the case that the whole Karen incident has just received lots of publicity due to timing and other factors such as Keith Lloyd, BLM, Covid and an increase in videos going viral. Then, equally the memes going viral, then the slide into misogyny and backlash? I do wonder whether, were it not for the current climate, the original Karen incident wouldn't have garnered nearly as much attention. I think that women have generally been put down for overstepping their perceived role for years by men regardless of race. I've not heard those other terms before, but am wondering why they haven't been challenged more within their countries of origin?

only words that affect white women are jumped on

Maybe because the majority in the UK are white? Could this be a reason?

the political machinations controlling the narrative are us based, yes

Agree

[quote HauteGirlSummer]@BlaBlaSmthSmth tbh only on mumsnet have I seen people using the word like this. And on the posts I've seen it's usually (a white woman) saying 'Oh I've been such a Karen today AIBU?' (Why anyone would ever refer to themselves as one is beyond me 🙄)

Usually all posters will say you're being unreasonable for using the Karen slur alone.

Never seen anyone use it to tell anyone to bore off seeing as it usually gets such a strong reaction on here.
I don't agree with its use either way as it doesn't solve anything.

[/quote]
That surprises me a lot TBH, 'Karen' is everywhere. From mundane posts/replies to awful abusive comments and memes. Mumsnet is the one place on the internet where I don't see it run rampant.

Also I don't understand how you know it's white women posting those threads on Mumsnet? I've never seen threads like that, but it would still be unacceptable, as said before there are real Karen's with real feelings who are affected by this being perpetuated constantly.

Also meant to say that I know you said you don't agree with it yourself @HauteGirlSummer so not having a go at you specifically.

But it's not ok to excuse it because you don't personally care or dismiss it/minimise just because you haven't noticed it much. I don't know how to link to other posts but if you search 'Karen is my name' you might get an idea of how it might jump out at you when it's your name being used.

I'm a real Karen and I give nae fucks about the actual name. I'll live.

It's shorthand for women of my age, so it's not just Karen. It's Louise, Sarah, Susan, Cathy, Claire, Debbie and Tracy too. All the girls I was at school with. It's just my own name the idiots have settled on for giggles.

It's the ageist misogyny that enrages me, not people pissing on the name my parents chose for me (although it is, of course, irritating).

On another note, what's wrong with asking to speak to the manager?

Because women are supposed to 'be nice' and accept any old shit I guess? 🤔
Certain people hate it when women speak up for themselves so they belittle them as much as they can get away with.

Tbh, I'm not sure that I fully understand the thread title here. Surely if something is labelled misogynistic, then it has little to do with race. If the problem is that you see the other names as misogynistic but feel that they have not received the same level of outrage as the term 'karen', then it would be worth considering why. Whether they have garnered as much publicity as the Karen incident, (a white woman being appallingly racist to a black man) whether there were as many memes etc? and who should be leading the outrage against them? Should it be all women? Those effected within their communities? Should it be the men within those communities? Should it be white women defending women from other communities? Should white women not defend themselves against targeted misogynism lest it divert attention away from misogynism in other communities? Who is to blame here and why?

@BlaBlaSmthSmth

Also meant to say that I know you said you don't agree with it yourself *@HauteGirlSummer* so not having a go at you specifically.

But it's not ok to excuse it because you don't personally care or dismiss it/minimise just because you haven't noticed it much. I don't know how to link to other posts but if you search 'Karen is my name' you might get an idea of how it might jump out at you when it's your name being used.

@BlaBlaSmthSmth I've seen that thread used the website with my own name too so I know. It's unfortunate that it's become a slur. But how do we stop it? I definitely don't dismiss or minimise it. I'm just saying it has more racist than ageist connotations.

I don't partake in slur usage. If someone is racist or misogynistic just call them that. No point in slurs. Same thing with 'gammon' 🙄 It's got out of hand.

Agree op

What comes across often in these threads isn’t misogyny is how dare they call ME that

Sort of proving the point. How dare non working class white women be challenged

I agree with you @HauteGirlSummer Karen and gammon are pointless and don't have same affect as just calling out awful, racist behaviour. It becomes diluted and ends up being used as a term of abuse for 'anyone who disagrees with me and I don't like the look of'.

In the case of Karen it definitely feels like misogyny to me and is used as a term used to shut women down.
I don't know how to stop misogyny other than to add to the voices calling it out. Let people know it's unacceptable and we can see their hatred.
Same when people post divisive, dismissive things like 'Karen is only considered misogyny because it refers to white women'.
Women of all races and backgrounds suffer misogyny, none of it is acceptable and we shouldn't be giving men a free pass to abuse a 'certain type' of woman.

It amazes me when American women call other women Karen's then proceed to tell African women, one's from Africa that they have never experienced racism... Nah they don't, they suffer poverty, persecution, famine and live on a knife edge of being raped in certain countries of Africa... To me any big mouthed American regardless of colour is a big bloody karen, the biggest in the world. Oh how they suffer, nobody else does just American women, white, black, Latino, tragic!