To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

I'm in the UK, and my understanding is 'Karen' is applied to women of ALL colours - as long as she's middle aged, and appears to be officious and likely to complain. I've been called a Karen and I'm not white or middle aged. Also, non white women can be entitled/bossy/difficult too - we're not all timid and vulnerable and scared of speaking up.....
So race doesn't come into it. I'm Asian originally, and in my home country we have a female centric term too (not a first name) for women who exhibit this type of behaviour. I find both terms misognystic because it's as assumption it's only women who behave this way - when plenty of men do it too! Why do we call we men yobs and not Garys (randomly grabbing a name here) or Charlie (after that bum flare fool)? I know in Scotland they have Ned, but that's an acronym and not the first name.

I have 2 friends called Karen - one is Chinese, the other Mexican. Incidentally my friend told me that Karen is even used in this context in China (by the westernised IG crowds), and it's certainly also used in my home country - so it's a pretty universal application now in even non-white countries.

Are you ever on TikTok? Find a video with some middle aged white women working out and you will see comments about it being a 'Karen training camp', find a video of middle aged white women having fun and the comments will be full of people talking about Karen's, any video where a white middle aged woman complains about anything even with no context given = Karen
Yes, I saw a video on there with a seagull stealing a sandwich from the shelf in Tesco and walking out with it. A woman tried to take it off the bird to put it back, and there were countless comments about her being a 'Karen'. As it was a white seagull I don't see the connection with racism...The fact is that misogynistic young men (not all, of course) hate older women, because we see through the BS and bravado. They want to poison the minds of young women against us, so they won't listen to us and can be more easily manipulated. Porn is bad - don't be a Karen! etc

well I understand your annoyance with being accused of speaking for a group of people. It does make sense why people need you to clarify. I cannot keep track of the amount of times that somebody has told me something is not racist because another black person said it was not racist.

We are not a monolith.

Of course not. Neither are white women or indeed white women called Karen.

@phishy in response to your comment that it’s clear that most people’s priority are white women, I think the comment below from @cinammonbuns (which is correctly interpreting an earlier comment of mine) sums it up. We all focus on what affects us directly. That’s not saying we don’t care about what affects others, or we don’t act to help, but it’s not our priority.

*she was speaking in general terms that she focuses on issues which affect white women of her class that she knows. Which is the truth of most people, not just white women of course.
They focus on what affects them and the people like them directly.

It is just an honest departure for the lies often repeated on here that people care as much about the issues do BAME women as the issue of white women like themselves. It’s simply not true.*

just as it's clear from this thread that most people's priority is white women.

No, it's clear that many people's priority is not enabling misogyny, regardless of race. No one here thinks it's acceptable to use misogynistic terms for BAME women. Yes, some posters do prioritise women. Not just "white women", women's rights as a whole.

@TheSlayer

It's all this language that is designed to dismiss people and therefore their opinions out of hand. Calling someone a name like that is designed to dehumanise them and therefore shut their opinion down. Dismissing opinions out of hand seems wrong to me. For example, someone may have valid reasons why they voted conservative, perhaps the counselor in their area is most qualified. But they can be shit down with Tory.

A woman might have concerns about men in women's prisons. Shut her down. Call her transphobic.

Karen is like this on steroids because it can be used to dismiss any woman's opinion, regardless of age, class or race.

I find it a bit scary it's so easy to silence a person for who they are. We should be moving away from that really.

This. And anyone who can’t see it needs to wake up.

Yes! What TheSlayer wrote. And to add it's not a coincidence this is happening to women of all nationalities and ethnicities and the social media platforms seem to encourage it not shut it down

I really take issue with being told that because I am white I don't care.

My son is disabled. Until you've been disabled or the parent of a child with a disability most people don't fully understand what it means.

I don't go around accusing parents of neurotypical children of being anti disabled though. Everyone is mostly trying to do the right thing, but we don't all have the same lens.
To confuse inexperience with being uncaring is unkind.

Off topic, but I thought Karen was just a UK name and not used anywhere else, then I remembered Karen Carpenter.

And I think one of Charlie Angels (original) was called Karen.

And a newsreader in the US

Totally off topic. Soz

@Iggi999

I would be interested in the percentage of times Karen is used by a BAME person of either sex as opposed to by a white male. In the U.K. I suspect it is heavily weighted toward the latter.

I'd agree with this because much like every time a Black or ethnic minority coins a term to describe their experiences it is invariably bastardized. See for reference: Woke. It's been hijacked and co-opted to mean something that it isn't. People are falling over themselves to tell you how they aren't 'woke'. What initially started out as a socially conscious awareness of systemic injustice, racism and lived experiences of Black people has now been tarnished. Same thing happened to Karen, not sure if they've picked up on Becky yet.

A while ago on tiktok a woman posted a video, just enjoying herself. She wasn't skinny and a man sitiched her video calling her all sorts of vile names and threatening secual violence. She called him out it and contacted his employer. Whose uniform he was wearing in the video. I think, she also found his wife on Facebook and messaged her.

She was labelled a Karen by many men of all ages. This man was white. She was white. No racisim involved. She just wasn't accepting it misogynistic bullying and threats of sexual violence.

That's not a Karen. And, in my opinion, trying to tell women that it's not ok to stand up for yourself, that it's not ok to deal with a sexist, vile bully is damaging to all women.

I have seen women of all colours being called Karen on tiktok, for calling out pedophiles. Because an underage girl opened a 'queefing' content account. The child in the videos was 12. And men were following her and commenting on her live streams. Each account was up about 18 hours before tiktok took it down. Then another would appear.

Groups of women of all races, (and some men) were taking screen shots of those that followed and those that commented to pass to the police. The men were praised. The women, were vilified by a large amount of men. Karen being the most common insult.

Its foul.

@TheMarzipanDildo

Those names are horrible and misogynistic too (and obviously racist to boot).

No ones name should be used as an insult.

This is basically where i stand

And I don't know why we're so keen to shut down the few groups of women who do have a more established voice. Namely the middle classes.
It won't mean other classes and races get a platform. It will mean no one will.

I've heard all of the other examples while growing up in the US. I also heard Pocahontas used as a jab at American Indigenous women along with those (usually at those perceived as White) who people viewed as pretending to be American Indigenous along with Cherokee Princess -- thinking on it, I've never heard a masculine insult for that concern.

They were viewed as sexist and racist though in many spaces, the racism tends to colour the intersection of the two very strongly. Just because people tend to focus more on the racism of those jabs doesn't mean the misogyny wasn't noticed or they were never considered misogynistic.

Also Becky and Stacy, which was used for young white women, has been around for a while too. Karen just ignited more with recent meme subcultures to a larger stage than I think any of the others except possibly Shaniqua which I vague recall showed up in a few movies.

I don't see the point in picking it out as 'prejudice' rather than being specific on what type of prejudice - sexism, ageism. Being specific is important in discussing how prejudices affect people.

And really, I would take the 'always' and 'nevers' found on twitter - along with a lot of the political discourse - with a dumpster of salt.

@todaysdilemma

I'm in the UK, and my understanding is 'Karen' is applied to women of ALL colours - as long as she's middle aged, and appears to be officious and likely to complain. I've been called a Karen and I'm not white or middle aged. Also, non white women can be entitled/bossy/difficult too - we're not all timid and vulnerable and scared of speaking up..... So race doesn't come into it. I'm Asian originally, and in my home country we have a female centric term too (not a first name) for women who exhibit this type of behaviour. I find both terms misognystic because it's as assumption it's only women who behave this way - when plenty of men do it too! Why do we call we men yobs and not Garys (randomly grabbing a name here) or Charlie (after that bum flare fool)? I know in Scotland they have Ned, but that's an acronym and not the first name.

I have 2 friends called Karen - one is Chinese, the other Mexican. Incidentally my friend told me that Karen is even used in this context in China (by the westernised IG crowds), and it's certainly also used in my home country - so it's a pretty universal application now in even non-white countries.

Totally agree

Sometimes it is necessary to be assertive. On the one had we are told not be door mats etc

@znaika

My main point is that women are stronger together. This hate stuff is not organic it is planned ( see the stuff on the feminism bpard that has been hidden as much as poasible) there are forces at work here.

You are my sisters and i will stand up for you in real life where it counts

Sorry but this is bullshit. The only sympathy you've evinced on this thread is for white women.

I really don't think that the posters saying "I have never heard of women being called Shaniquas, Guadeloupes etc' were at all trying to claim it doesn't happen. But how can you be expected to call people out on slurs you have literally never heard of (perhaps because they are examples typical in America rather than the UK)?

Calling people of a different cultural background by a stereotypically common name in that way is disgusting, whether they are male or female, and whatever their ethnicity. But I fail to see why that makes the Karen thing any less offensive. It is perfectly possible to care about multiple types of prejudice.

[quote Spindless]@phishy* in response to your comment that it’s clear that most people’s priority are white women, I think the comment below from *@cinammonbuns (which is correctly interpreting an earlier comment of mine) sums it up. We all focus on what affects us directly. That’s not saying we don’t care about what affects others, or we don’t act to help, but it’s not our priority.

*she was speaking in general terms that she focuses on issues which affect white women of her class that she knows. Which is the truth of most people, not just white women of course.
They focus on what affects them and the people like them directly.

It is just an honest departure for the lies often repeated on here that people care as much about the issues do BAME women as the issue of white women like themselves. It’s simply not true.[/quote]
That's a good post from @cinammonbuns*, who has been ganged up on a lot on this thread.

I agree with that, if people are honest that issues affecting white women are their priority.

But that's not what's happening on this thread, people aren't being honest.

@phishy i am not white or Western.

@Dutch1e

Nothing becomes a feminist issue until it affects white women so yes, I agree with you OP.

how many white women are affected by FGM? international surrogacy? child marriage? 'honour' based violence? fistula?

all feminist issues which women are working on from a feminist perspective

Prioritising what effects you @phishy is human nature. I assure you in my case my failure to prioritise issues that BAME women face isn’t because I’m racist. I can only fight on so many fronts.

Im happy to say i focus on issues that affect me most. So i focus a lot on disability rights and how misogyny affects women but obviously only experiencing it from a white perspective.

White women are trafficked in vast numbers. But Eastern European women dont fit the white privilege stereotype so screw em

I think you're mistaking 'not an immediate concern' to 'not caring'.

As I stated before. I doubt anyone on this thread is horrible to the disabled, uses the word spastic etc.
But I doubt it's their number one priority. This doesn't mean they don't care. Perhaps many of them give to charities that help disability. Who knows. Maybe they use their time to campaign for women's rights, or BLM or whatever else their passion is.
Just because something isn't centre stage in everyone's world, doesn't mean people don't care or are 'ist'.
I don't expect cp to be top of everyone's priorities. I expect people to vote for initiatives that help people like my son and are not openly mean.
I don't expect everyone to have it at centre front(it'd be great if it was, but I understand everyone has different properties)
I fight for my son and as long as people are mindful and not discriminatory, that's all I can ask.

@phishy people are being honest, they just don't think as divisivly as you on this. My priority is women, not white women. As a human being with empathy, I also care about other issues that don't affect me like racism and homophobia. I wouldn't deem it appropriate to drag those people down, because my experience as a woman is "worse."

I didn't dismiss your experiences at all, I acknowledged that I cannot claim to have experienced them, I simply questioned the above logic, which applies regardless of who has it worse.

And the target here is not specifically BAME people using the term, it is the term itself and it's wider cultural effects. The biggest culprits of it are men. That said, you can be a victim of oppression and still contribute to the oppression of others, just as white women can.