To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

Funnily enough, my Black, American, socially conscious, former-university-professor mother was called... Karen 😂 she sadly died many years ago but would have found all of this hilarious and would have probably had some very insightful shit to say which would have shut us all up.

@phishy

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved, embarrassingly deserved!!

Exactly @grey12

I don't think people here realise just how scary it is to be confronted by someone that filled with hate and entitlement because they believe their skin colour to be superior.

Hurt feelings over Karen just doesn't compare.

Exactly! But I find that the term "karen" is even extending beyond race

Regardless it is that horrible rage and entitlement that the victims feel like there is no argument possible to explain to those people that they are sooo wrong......

@Katedanielshasakitty well I understand your annoyance with being accused of speaking for a group of people. It does make sense why people need you to clarify. I cannot keep track of the amount of times that somebody has told me something is not racist because another black person said it was not racist.

We are not a monolith.

I don't see the use of Karen as being misogynistic. I see it as a shorthand for "entitled usually white woman doing something abusive". It's certainly less awful and definitely more descriptive than being called a b#tch or worse, isn't it

It's used for women over a certain age daring to have an opinion. Sometimes they might have an unacceptable opinion. If so, you criticise the opinion. Sometimes they might be rude to customer service staff. But more often, they are simply saying they don't agree with something.

A few weeks ago I bought a dishwasher which stopped working after 3 washes. I bought it locally so went to the shop to ask (politely) what could be done. A lot of men (and obviously MNers too) would describe me as a Karen for daring to say that something doesn't work because I am being entitled to make a complaint.

Criticise the behaviour, don't use an unpleasant, sexist and ageist meme.

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved

It was not well deserved.

The behaviours may have deserved criticism. Not the same thing.

@MorrisZapp

Banging on a car window? Dreadful. Wtf does Karen have to do with it?

I see men shouting and being ghastly all the time in my city but there is no common name that I'm aware of to 'call them out'.

Nearly breaking a window and harassing a child over a parking spot???!!!! Are you being serious?!

@Bloodypunkrockers

Grey12. That is an example of someone being a dick

That's all

Exactly!!!

Wait.... isn't being called a "dick" sexist as well?....

There needs to be a better word than "karen" but, unfortunately "dick" isn't it

Thats not being a "Karen" . That's being a psychopath.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

What makes that a Karen behaviour and not an entitled twat behaviour?

Exactly. Yes women do shitty things. That's not in dispute. So why do we need a special misogynistic word for it, when men do too?

I agree. I recently commented on a post about e scooters on FB. All I said was that they were illegal other than on Private land. This apparently made me a Karen None of the men who had posted, including ones who talked about banning them, reporting people to the Police etc were called anything. Whatever it’s roots it’s certainly now used to shut women up

Let's come up with a good word for it then. Honestly!!

Someone raging with entitlement.

Rude, a "dick", psychopath, doesn't cover this ever more common attitude

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved, embarrassingly deserved!!

Are you ever on TikTok? Find a video with some middle aged white women working out and you will see comments about it being a 'Karen training camp', find a video of middle aged white women having fun and the comments will be full of people talking about Karen's, any video where a white middle aged woman complains about anything even with no context given = Karen, any video with a middle aged white woman with a certain hair cut = Karen. It's really not true to say that in the majority of videos it is 'embarrassing deserved, perhaps if you are just watching videos titled Karen but flick through comment sections and tou will see it everywhere.

I can't really comment on the OP. I live in neither the UK or the US and have no idea about those names or the context that they are used in, it isn't something I have ever come across.

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved, embarrassingly deserved!!
I'm sure I've posted this photo before, first saw it on Twitter and struggled to relate it to the idea that a "Karen" was a racist abusing an employee. Easy though to see it as a sexist slur on women having a good time and daring to be middle aged.

Sorry to repeat the point but the words abusive, racist, sexist are still in popular usage.
Trying to communicate some of these things with the word Karen muddies the message.
Especially if you use it sometimes for all, sometimes for none.

On this thread alone.
A concern for the environment. Karen.
Challenging behaviour that endangers the elderly. Karen.
Verbal abuse to a child. Karen.
Racially motivated fake crime reporting. Karen.

These behaviours are far too broad in their socially acceptability to be lumped together as 'Karen behaviour'.

It's used so casually it lacks meaning. Which is why we have teens on this thread using it for 'Dont like it when mum tells me what to do'.

The only thing it's useful for is to score cheap points.

[quote cinammonbuns]@Katedanielshasakitty well I understand your annoyance with being accused of speaking for a group of people. It does make sense why people need you to clarify. I cannot keep track of the amount of times that somebody has told me something is not racist because another black person said it was not racist.

We are not a monolith.[/quote]
But who are the people that assumed I was speaking for anyone?

One poster, assumed I was white and speaking for a group I wasn't part of.

Except I am part of it. Still wasn't speaking for it.

But since it was assumed I was white. No one thought I was part of 'BAME Monolith'

Who else has to clarify they are speaking I their own behalf?

Grey12, There is nothing about that which is "Karen" behavior.
Use actual words, this behavior is "abusive"or perhaps "this woman is being abusive" if you want to highlight the sex of the offender.

There is no merit in dragging a random female name into this description particularly when people with this name have requested you don't.

There is nothing about being given the first name Karen that leads to abusive behavior.

@Wroxie

Funnily enough, my Black, American, socially conscious, former-university-professor mother was called... Karen 😂 she sadly died many years ago but would have found all of this hilarious and would have probably had some very insightful shit to say which would have shut us all up.

My socially conscious etc mum is called Maggie, and yes we did have a field day with that in the 80s :)

The only time calling someone a Karen is justified is if their mother named them Karen.

@aSofaNearYou

No, I did not. My point was literally that it's possible to care about both, and that caring about issues specific to BAME women does not have to mean misogyny does not exist or matter outside of that sphere. You were the one actively admitting that you only care about your own experiences.

But you didn't make that point. I gave my experiences and you dismissed it straightaway. I said that BAME women are my priority because they're at the bottom of my heap, just as it's clear from this thread that most people's priority is white women.

As for allyship, you're very proud to not have that yourself.

Given my experiences, is it any wonder I would ally with other BAME people?

@OuiOuiKitty and @Iggi999 you're right! That is bad and misogynistic

Most of the posters are referring to the extremely rude entitled behaviour that seems to have become increasingly common. The videos of people shouting and abusing others because they did something the person finds mindboggling offensive or are following the guidelines of their workplace....

Let's find a word for it together I'm not good with words. Someone here might be

@MorrisZapp

You don't have to prioritise anyone's feelings at all. Just don't use a sexist slur.

I don't use Karen, but I'm not going to vilify BAME people who do. Maybe trying walking a mile in our shoes.

I’ve never heard of ‘Shaniqua’ as a slur but I have now done some googling and educated myself. I see it’s used by the likes of the delightful Katie Hopkins as a generic way of dismissing black women who dare speak up for themselves.

It seems to me that whether or not Karen is a misogynistic slur is whether you take its original US meaning, or the meaning that has evolved over time outside the US. As I said upthread, I have only been called a Karen once, and it was when I dared to call a man who thinks he should have authority over me out over bad behaviour (as it happens, the behaviour in question was a racist joke). When I asked if he knew what a Karen was, he informed me that a Karen was ‘any stroppy loud woman aged between 30 and 50’. The latter usage is clearly textbook misogyny.

Even thought I’ve only learnt about it today it seems clear to me that ‘Shaniqua’ is both a misogynistic and racist slur, perfectly illustrating how women of colour are subject to the dual oppressive forces of misogyny and racism, while white women have the comparative privilege of only having to contend with misogyny (and homophobia or classism, as applicable).

I fully acknowledge that that white women can be both oppressed and oppressors. The two roles aren’t mutually exclusive. But that doesn’t make misogyny ok. It is a pervasive negative force affecting women of all races.

Come to think of it, what I'd like to know is, who is mainly using these terms? White/Black/Asian/Hispanic men/women? Are these names used by black men/women to insult other black women, for example, for being lower class and sexual? In my experience, I can't remember a white British woman using any of these terms (I have met white British racist women who've said P*ki, but they've never used these other names). Are they the equivalent of 'Sharon and Tracy' being sexist and classist names, used by white people as well as other ethnicities for shaming women for being lower class and sexual? Or are they used only by white people as a slur - if so, is it mainly white men or women doing so? If we're going to call out the misogyny (and they are misogynistic, as well as racist and classist), I want to know who is using these names. In America - or in the UK, where others have said they've heard them - where these names come from, who uses them?

I don't get that people's priority are white women at all.
It's just that we don't believe in the existence of racism justifies misogyny.
If someone is racist. Say that.
Sexist. Ditto.
Calling someone a Karen is just childish and doesn't address the issue at hand.

I would be interested in the percentage of times Karen is used by a BAME person of either sex as opposed to by a white male.
In the U.K. I suspect it is heavily weighted toward the latter.

It's all this language that is designed to dismiss people and therefore their opinions out of hand.
Calling someone a name like that is designed to dehumanise them and therefore shut their opinion down. Dismissing opinions out of hand seems wrong to me.
For example, someone may have valid reasons why they voted conservative, perhaps the counselor in their area is most qualified. But they can be shit down with Tory.

A woman might have concerns about men in women's prisons. Shut her down. Call her transphobic.

Karen is like this on steroids because it can be used to dismiss any woman's opinion, regardless of age, class or race.

I find it a bit scary it's so easy to silence a person for who they are. We should be moving away from that really.