To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

Quite, Clymene.

[quote TheSlayer]@Katedanielshasakitty yes it was genuine not sarcasm. I thought it well expressed but didn't have much more to add to it, so may have come across a little brusque.[/quote]
Sorry about that. I wasn't sure. I shouldnt have said anything. Thank you

@Ihavehadenoughalready

Karen's are not in my experience being denigrated for "having an opinion". They are rightly denigrated for raging at store workers, calling the police on black people for gathering at a public park, or gardening on their own property, attempting to enter their own apartment buildings, using their own apartment complex swimming pool, working at their own job site and being accused of "not looking like they belong there", and on and on it goes. Abuse by white women who think they have the right and possibly the duty to question any black person for doing anything they deem "suspicious". Who think police have no right to pull them over for traffic infractions because they are an elected official or a public figure..seen a few of those.

Do try to watch Karen compilations on you tube and you will see what I'm talking about. A lot of the Karen's recently have been anti-maskers taking their rage out on store employees and end up being arrested, my opinion is that this is their intention, as many are photographing themselves.This is not "white women having an opinion". This is people purposefully thinking their own opinion trumps (ha ha) everyone else's and everyone else's rights, and that they have a right to create scenes and force police to be deployed to remove their uncooperative unruly selves from private property.

Not all Karens are white women.

But entitled white women are the stereotypical Karen, at least here in the US.

As for Shaniqua, not sure when it started, but it could have been the movie Crash. When a black woman responsible for helping a white racist man get help for his father who was deteriorating medically, told him her name was Shaniqua, he responded "Of course it is."

Crash is a movie that explores everybody's racism and how all of it interplays with events.

Shaniqua does end up helping the racist white guy when they both were able to see themselves as fellow humans.

I don't see the use of Karen as being misogynistic. I see it as a shorthand for "entitled usually white woman doing something abusive". It's certainly less awful and definitely more descriptive than being called a b#tch or worse, isn't it?

Sorry to all the actual women named Karen out there. Lots of perfectly good names have gotten a bad reputation.

just gonna say it again, it comes from a reddit user making "comedy" posts about how he hates his ex wife for misogynistic lols, c. 2016-17

I don't see how white women (or BAME women for that matter) in the UK are supposed to call out these terms for being misogynistic if we've never heard of them because they're mainly used in another country to describe people in that other country . You may as well bring up some sexist/racist terms from Japan or Papua New Guinea and complain we don't call them out. I don't even know what these terms mean - a Black/Asian/Hispanic woman who does what? I've no idea. I generally find reducing people to terminology like this doesn't help change anything and just turns the dialogue toxic. Even if these terms are used in the UK, as some are claiming, they're clearly not as widely known as 'Karen', so it's hardly surprising they're not being 'called out'. I'm really tired of all this toxic dialogue. There is racism to be addressed in the UK, and sexism, and these can also intersect. It would be helpful to tackle that, rather than transplanting American dialogues about race when we have a completely different culture.

@Clymene

As ever, I ask myself who benefits. It sure as shit ain't women, whatever our skin colour.

This is exactly my point. As a mixed race woman I don't feel I benefit at all from any women being dragged down or bullied for expressing their opinion.

Its not a term for a woman expressing a racist opinion. Its any woman expressing any opinion.

It really doesn't feel like it helps.

But I must say. This is my opinion only. Other peoples opinions may vary.

Just incase I get accused of trying to speak for whole groups of people again.

Yes, YABU.

There is racism to be addressed in the UK, and sexism, and these can also intersect. It would be helpful to tackle that, rather than transplanting American dialogues about race when we have a completely different culture.

Yes, it's pretty tiresome. This isn't America and many of the dynamics in society aren't the same.

Karen isn't primarily a middle class name in the U.K.

@Novelusername

I don't see how white women (or BAME women for that matter) in the UK are supposed to call out these terms for being misogynistic if we've never heard of them because they're mainly used in another country to describe people in that other country . You may as well bring up some sexist/racist terms from Japan or Papua New Guinea and complain we don't call them out. I don't even know what these terms mean - a Black/Asian/Hispanic woman who does what? I've no idea. I generally find reducing people to terminology like this doesn't help change anything and just turns the dialogue toxic. Even if these terms are used in the UK, as some are claiming, they're clearly not as widely known as 'Karen', so it's hardly surprising they're not being 'called out'. I'm really tired of all this toxic dialogue. There is racism to be addressed in the UK, and sexism, and these can also intersect. It would be helpful to tackle that, rather than transplanting American dialogues about race when we have a completely different culture.

Scroll back one page and read my post if you're actually interested in the background of the Black name stereotype slur. And as a mixed-race woman (usually just seen as Black) here in the UK I can fucking well confirm that the racism against Black-coded names on job applications and the stereotypes related to those names are 100% an issue here. I won't call you a liar if you say you have never heard a joke or witnessed racism related to Black-coded names like Shaniqua but I'm damn skeptical.

Sorry to shout but

THIS IS THE UK!!! Actual Britain! I'm in Scotland myself. I'm aware that MN is international and there are users here from pretty much everywhere but it's a UK run site and the users are mostly (not all!) in the UK.

Why should we accept a slur that in this country means gobby middle aged woman with crap hairdo because in another country very far away it means something else? Not that I love the insinuation that women make male violence happen anyway but putting that aside, it's just not how the meme is used here.

@Novelusername

I don't see how white women (or BAME women for that matter) in the UK are supposed to call out these terms for being misogynistic if we've never heard of them because they're mainly used in another country to describe people in that other country . You may as well bring up some sexist/racist terms from Japan or Papua New Guinea and complain we don't call them out. I don't even know what these terms mean - a Black/Asian/Hispanic woman who does what? I've no idea. I generally find reducing people to terminology like this doesn't help change anything and just turns the dialogue toxic. Even if these terms are used in the UK, as some are claiming, they're clearly not as widely known as 'Karen', so it's hardly surprising they're not being 'called out'. I'm really tired of all this toxic dialogue. There is racism to be addressed in the UK, and sexism, and these can also intersect. It would be helpful to tackle that, rather than transplanting American dialogues about race when we have a completely different culture.

That's what I should have said. Ignore my shouty rant.

@Wroxie this is shit. It's horrid and needs to be called out. But why come on to a UK site and start having a go at british women about us issues?

My experience is that racsim is everywhere but the legacy of slavery is like a gaping wound in the us and it affects far more people than the descendanta of slaves who had to suffer undwr segregation and other diseempowering laws and structures.

I know what my eyes look like but i never realised that i was not 'white' until i went to the us, the attitudes around race are very different there. Are there race issues in europe- yes of course. But Bame women (of which i am one) in europe are not best served by importing us racial divisions and issues

I currently live in the USA and the term Karen is now used as a general sexist slur here as well.

My teens have used it to describe any middle aged woman who is saying or doing something they don't like.

They don't say it anymore around me because they don't want a lecture from me.
But ageism and sexism are culturally pretty acceptable both in the UK and the USA despite the many cultural differences.

I don't see how white women (or BAME women for that matter) in the UK are supposed to call out these terms for being misogynistic if we've never heard of them because they're mainly used in another country to describe people in that other country

You mean YOU have never heard of them. I grew up in the UK - I am completely familiar with Shaniqua et al. Kanisha, Hyesha etc etc. Just because you've never come across it doesn't mean it doesn't pervade.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

What is 'acting like a Karen?' Pray tell.

Being a woman, and having an opinion seems to do it.

Search YouTube and you'll see plenty of examples

But I'll give you one:

A "karen" was banging HARD on the window of a teenage girl waiting on the car for her mum to come back from the pharmacy. The lady was shouting abuse at this girl (too young to drive!!) that she was on HER spot (parking for pharmacy customers). This lady did not work at the pharmacy nor was the parking space specifically saved for someone (disability, person working there, wtv). This lady felt entitled to that parking space for some reason and decided to abuse a child!! this young girl was scared!

[quote znaika]@Wroxie this is shit. It's horrid and needs to be called out. But why come on to a UK site and start having a go at british women about us issues?

My experience is that racsim is everywhere but the legacy of slavery is like a gaping wound in the us and it affects far more people than the descendanta of slaves who had to suffer undwr segregation and other diseempowering laws and structures.

I know what my eyes look like but i never realised that i was not 'white' until i went to the us, the attitudes around race are very different there. Are there race issues in europe- yes of course. But Bame women (of which i am one) in europe are not best served by importing us racial divisions and issues[/quote]
I'm not having a go at anyone. I'm explaining what the slur means and the history behind it because people said they didn't know. And I live in the UK, I've lived here for nearly 20 years, and plenty of people DO know what the slur means and have used it. I think they get it from movies and TV shows.

What makes that a Karen behaviour and not an entitled twat behaviour?

Well that's the point though isn't it? The slurs exist, but how or why would we call them out if we haven't heard of them?

And as a mixed-race woman (usually just seen as Black) here in the UK I can fucking well confirm that the racism against Black-coded names on job applications and the stereotypes related to those names are 100% an issue here. I won't call you a liar if you say you have never heard a joke or witnessed racism related to Black-coded names like Shaniqua but I'm damn skeptical.

No one is claiming that you haven't had those experiences, and certainly not that there is no racism in the U.K.. But "Shaniqua" is not in mainstream use in the U.K. as a slur. So what is its relevance to the misogynistic slur Karen as used by mostly men in the U.K. for women they don't approve of? Sometimes BAME women, like Priti Patel?

@Ihavehadenoughalready All of that would be fair enough were it not for the fact that there is no equivalent term for men, despite them demonstrating just as much behaviour like that and worse. As I said here, where are all the posts about "Derek's" - so racist they attack BAME people? Someone mentioned Emmet Till upthread, and whilst yes the woman involved was awful and should he held accountable, what about the men who committed the crime?

If BAME people were the only marginalised group, then calling racist and unpleasant women out on their behaviour would be nothing but fair and appropriate. But actually, we still live in a world rife with sexist double standards, and that also matters. It matters that what men do flies under the radar and is never singled out to be tackled, but we do single out women.

Banging on a car window? Dreadful. Wtf does Karen have to do with it?

I see men shouting and being ghastly all the time in my city but there is no common name that I'm aware of to 'call them out'.

What makes that a Karen behaviour and not an entitled twat behaviour?

Exactly. Yes women do shitty things. That's not in dispute. So why do we need a special misogynistic word for it, when men do too?

Calling out racism with misogyny doesn't benefit women.

Grey12. That is an example of someone being a dick

That's all

Hi Wroxie yes, I'm aware that there have been studies about racist discrimination on application forms due to 'Black' sounding names, I'm not denying anything like that. I've definitely heard the made up name thing used as a joke on TV, I can't remember which shows but I'm sure they must be American because it's not so common here to use those kinds of names, I'm also vaguely remembering that it may have been black male comics joking about these names as well, pretty sure it wasn't white women. I've never heard that kind of name referred to as a joke in real life that I can recall. It's clearly a racist, sexist, classist term, all I'm saying is I don't think it's something that's commonly used in the UK, hence the lack of calling it out as misogynistic. You can't really give people a bollocking for not calling out something they've never used or heard.

Internalised misogyny is quite a drug.