To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

@Katedanielshasakitty I doubt Slayer was being sarcastic, your observations were genuinely very interesting!

Never heard of any of those other names used as a stereotype, I used to live in the USA and not there either where I lived. I know 3 Karen's in real life, two white, 1 black (Liberian decent) and all absolutely lovely!!!

@FloofyCushion yes ignore as starting threads about it just brings it to the forefront

[quote phishy]@Katedanielshasakitty yo ur post didn’t say your race and it’s irrelevant, you don’t speak for me so don’t tell me what I should be opposed to. Or is it only you that’s allowed an opinion?[/quote]
It 2 above that one. Dont assume my race because you don't like my opinion. You assumed that I was white because you disagreed. And then thought because I was white I must be trying to speak for you.

Nowhere did I say you can't have an opinion. Exactly where did I say that?

I gave my opinion and you accused me of speaking for you. I never tried to speak for you.

Sexism aimed at all women, harms all women. And all women should be opposed to it. That's my opinion. I didn't say it has to be yours or you must agree. Or that all mixed race wen or women of colour should or do feel the same.

The only person trying to supress someone's opinion is you.

Someone expressing their personal opinion and feelings is not attempting to speak for someone.

I have never said, that I speak for a whole group.

I don't think you are trying to speak for me, when you say you are only concerned with BAME women. I just think you have a different opinion.

[quote aSofaNearYou]@Katedanielshasakitty I doubt Slayer was being sarcastic, your observations were genuinely very interesting![/quote]
Well then I am just an idiot 😳 sorry @TheSlayer

Though apparently my personal thoughts and opinions haven't gone down well with some people 🤷‍♀️

@aSofaNearYou

How so? I haven't in the slightest

Well, you did. I shared my experience of being patronised, condescended, underpaid, under promoted as a BAME woman and you responded with ‘Nobody knows exactly what it's like to be somebody else.’

It’s just lip service, there is no allyship with BAME women on MN.

Though apparently my personal thoughts and opinions haven't gone down well with some people 🤷‍♀️

Mine either! For what it's worth I found your comments very insightful too.

Its generally considered unacceptable to continue to use a slur after people who are affected by it have asked you not to; unless the people affected are women.

This only benefits sexist men. It would be really easy to come up with a word to replace 'Karen' that isn't misogynistic.

This.

its misoggynistic because it derides a woman for stepping out of her approved role (letting people walk all over her)
you can add ageist to that because women called Karen tend to be middle aged

@StillWeRise when used correctly it is letting someone know they are being extremely rude. It's the same as calling someone racist: they may not like it, but it's probably the truth!

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved, embarrassingly deserved!!

@Katedanielshasakitty

It 2 above that one. Dont assume my race because you don't like my opinion. You assumed that I was white because you disagreed. And then thought because I was white I must be trying to speak for you.

I didn’t assume your race. You said ALL women should be opposed and I asked you not to speak for me. Where is the assumption about your race?

Interesting that the alternative behaviour would have been for her to just stand there and accept being bullied off the pavement by males on bikes.

Yes. Righteous misogyny is the very best kind of misogyny!

@Katedanielshasakitty I see the post you may be referring to, I quoted a line and didn't see who posted it.

@grey12

*its misoggynistic because it derides a woman for stepping out of her approved role (letting people walk all over her) you can add ageist to that because women called Karen tend to be middle aged*

@StillWeRise when used correctly it is letting someone know they are being extremely rude. It's the same as calling someone racist: they may not like it, but it's probably the truth!

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved, embarrassingly deserved!!

Rude and racist are excellent, clear words to describe rude and/or racist behaviour.

Karen isn't.

[quote phishy]@Katedanielshasakitty

It 2 above that one. Dont assume my race because you don't like my opinion. You assumed that I was white because you disagreed. And then thought because I was white I must be trying to speak for you.

I didn’t assume your race. You said ALL women should be opposed and I asked you not to speak for me. Where is the assumption about your race?[/quote]
You did assume my race. Read it back. Especially your talk about me being more privileged than you

You said

My experience as a BAME woman differs vastly from those of white women. There is no equivalence, you are much more privileged than me.

when used correctly

There is no "correct usage". You are using a term originally popularised by misogynistic men on Reddit with a grudge against women. There is no fabulous social justice meaning for your misogynistic slur, whoever else supports the use of it.

This only benefits sexist men. It would be really easy to come up with a word to replace 'Karen' that isn't misogynistic.

There was, more a phrase: 'a subset of white women who wield their whiteness and gender to cause chaos for BAME people' but we were then told 'nOt AlL wHiTe wOmEn, aND tHaTz RaCiSt'

I'm not saying that EVERY single time someone is called a "Karen" it is justified, but the greatest majority of times I've seen it on the internet it was well deserved, embarrassingly deserved!!

Exactly @grey12

I don't think people here realise just how scary it is to be confronted by someone that filled with hate and entitlement because they believe their skin colour to be superior.

Hurt feelings over Karen just doesn't compare.

Just to clarify, because most of you didn't grow up in a Black family in the US, where "stereotypical" Black female names like Shaniqua have been weaponised as slurs, this is what is meant (so you can't say you don't know any more):

Loud, brash, poor, bad parent, on welfare (benefits), ignorant, sexually promiscuous (children with multiple men), foolish with money (spending on hair and nails instead of saving), unemployed OR working in a low-paid service job and being unhelpful/having a bad attitude.

(White) people have often accused Black people of "making up" names for their children - like the aforementioned Shaniqua, or names like Tasheena or LaQuonda (both names in the Black side of my family) or my own middle name, which I won't post here but is definitely a Black coded name- never stopping to think that maybe Black people, especially during the civil rights movement, didn't want to give their children the names of the people who had enslaved their parents and grandparents, and since they had been robbed of any connection to their African history and heritage, had no traditional names of their own to choose from. So creating beautiful new names not only makes sense, it was a creative and clever idea. To then have those well-loved and carefully chosen names denigrated as a symbol of every negative stereotype about black women is especially hurtful.

I'm sure that the East Asian and Latina "stereotype" names have similar interesting and painful stories behind them, and I know a bit about that but I'll leave it to the people affected to explain them if they want to.

Anyway. If you think "Karen" as a slur is equivalent to "Shaniqua" as a slur, you should probably recalibrate your thinking a bit. Call out the misogyny on its own terms but don't try to compare it.

@VladmirsPoutine

This only benefits sexist men. It would be really easy to come up with a word to replace 'Karen' that isn't misogynistic.

There was, more a phrase: 'a subset of white women who wield their whiteness and gender to cause chaos for BAME people' but we were then told 'nOt AlL wHiTe wOmEn, aND tHaTz RaCiSt'

That isn't how Karen is used in the UK. I don't know where you live but MN is a a majority UK site.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

when used correctly

There is no "correct usage". You are using a term originally popularised by misogynistic men on Reddit with a grudge against women. There is no fabulous social justice meaning for your misogynistic slur, whoever else supports the use of it.

This, absolutely.

[quote phishy]@aSofaNearYou

How so? I haven't in the slightest

Well, you did. I shared my experience of being patronised, condescended, underpaid, under promoted as a BAME woman and you responded with ‘Nobody knows exactly what it's like to be somebody else.’

It’s just lip service, there is no allyship with BAME women on MN.[/quote]
No, I did not. My point was literally that it's possible to care about both, and that caring about issues specific to BAME women does not have to mean misogyny does not exist or matter outside of that sphere. You were the one actively admitting that you only care about your own experiences.

I do care about the experiences of BAME women. I am not one so I absolutely cannot argue with the suggestion that they have it much worse, nor would I. I just disagree that having it worse means all other misogyny doesn't matter and shouldn't be tackled.

Nobody is asking you to prioritise white women. It's your choice to not care at all about misogyny outside of your own experiences, but that can mean contributing to it.

As for allyship, you're very proud to not have that yourself.

@Katedanielshasakitty yes it was genuine not sarcasm. I thought it well expressed but didn't have much more to add to it, so may have come across a little brusque.

@aSofaNearYou

Though apparently my personal thoughts and opinions haven't gone down well with some people 🤷‍♀️

Mine either! For what it's worth I found your comments very insightful too.

Thank you. That means alot.

Karen's are not in my experience being denigrated for "having an opinion". They are rightly denigrated for raging at store workers, calling the police on black people for gathering at a public park, or gardening on their own property, attempting to enter their own apartment buildings, using their own apartment complex swimming pool, working at their own job site and being accused of "not looking like they belong there", and on and on it goes. Abuse by white women who think they have the right and possibly the duty to question any black person for doing anything they deem "suspicious". Who think police have no right to pull them over for traffic infractions because they are an elected official or a public figure..seen a few of those.

Do try to watch Karen compilations on you tube and you will see what I'm talking about. A lot of the Karen's recently have been anti-maskers taking their rage out on store employees and end up being arrested, my opinion is that this is their intention, as many are photographing themselves.This is not "white women having an opinion". This is people purposefully thinking their own opinion trumps (ha ha) everyone else's and everyone else's rights, and that they have a right to create scenes and force police to be deployed to remove their uncooperative unruly selves from private property.

Not all Karens are white women.

But entitled white women are the stereotypical Karen, at least here in the US.

As for Shaniqua, not sure when it started, but it could have been the movie Crash. When a black woman responsible for helping a white racist man get help for his father who was deteriorating medically, told him her name was Shaniqua, he responded "Of course it is."

Crash is a movie that explores everybody's racism and how all of it interplays with events.

Shaniqua does end up helping the racist white guy when they both were able to see themselves as fellow humans.

I don't see the use of Karen as being misogynistic. I see it as a shorthand for "entitled usually white woman doing something abusive". It's certainly less awful and definitely more descriptive than being called a b#tch or worse, isn't it?

Sorry to all the actual women named Karen out there. Lots of perfectly good names have gotten a bad reputation.

As ever, I ask myself who benefits. It sure as shit ain't women, whatever our skin colour.