To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

If the 'Karens' don't like being called Karen, they shouldn't act like a Karen. It's a name linked to a stereotype for a reason. The ones who get mad about it are the ones who fit the stereotype.

If their name is actually Karen, they should know the nickname Karen doesn't apply to them unless they fit the stereotype, in which case they probably deserve the nickname.

Racists would say the same about racist slurs. Homophobes would say the same about homophobic slurs.

“Don’t act like a stereotypical X, and people won’t call you it”

How about stop feeling you and your opinions are superior to others based on their sex, sexuality, race and finding offensive words to silence them?

You’re just a house brand misogynist defending their misogyny.

@ChittyChittyBangBangChicken no it was not before the internat was around. You can actually Google the usage of both these names if you are genuinely interested in the history of them being used but it seems you are not.

[quote Pastrydame]@MildredPuppy do you condone your son using Karen in this way? Don't you tell him not to, as you would if you heard him saying "gay" or any of the derogatory insults for disabled people I hear some teens say?[/quote]
No i dont condone it. Ive explained several times why i am not keen on it but as yet it hasnt sunk in. He cant, as yet see the sexism. He has learned not to say it around me to avoid a lecture, but Im under no illusion that its in common useage in his age group. He doesnt use gay or derogatory terms for disabled people and thats not widespread in his friends because several of them are gay or have disabled siblings.

Talking on my lived experience here,not mumsnet experience.

I used to get upset and cry when I was a child and was called :blcky,Pcky or n**ger.I was being supervised by white women so told them(my area was mostly white).The reply was 'sticks and stones will break your bones but names will never hurt you'.I was really being told to get over it.The irony is the same women hate being referred to as 'Karen's.

I think the issue is ,there wasn't really a term that struck the same blow to white women as the terms I have used above.There is no equivalent to n*ger for a white person unless you were Irish and called a green ,nger.Hnky doesn't do it either ,as it was used for American white men looking for prostitutes.Karen is one of the first terms used mainly for white women and is being used for younger women where crone is used for a woman of an older age.

White women,especially those of a higher class (sorry middle class/working class women); have historically been seen as someone that needed protection and have gotten away with alot e.g Emmet Till.The use of the term 'Karen' is a double edged sword:It makes women accountable and levels the playing field calling out w women behaving inappropriately but penalises w women for expressing an opinion.

Well then I do have to wonder what the point is then.
Op: I saw something on twitter
Various replies explaining how it's far more nuanced than a tweet has capacity for.

I mean, what's the point? I've never seen an aibu

Question posed.
Yes op.
Tumbleweed.

[quote cinammonbuns]@CuriousaboutSamphire I’m not talking about things such as that. That is you choosing to give time to a charity and cause you care about. It has nothing to do with conflicting allegiances. I mean situations when for example a women would defend her sons and cover up his crimes when he has rape killed abused etc .another woman or when people defended their racist or mysogynistic family on social media. The incident a few months ago at an Irish train station is one example. That is an example or conflicting allegiances and women choosing to not side with other women. I.e on council estates with people of all races the white women starting a campaign to get black people evicted for absolutely no reason except tor the misguided belief that they were taking jobs. As if systematic austerity and poor education as the the reason they didn’t have jobs. This is an example of a conflicting allegiances not charitable activities which is commendable but aren’t really in conflict with anything else.[/quote]
Mmm! I think you might need to have a rethink about 'charitable activities' and conflict!

Me, white 50 yer old woman stood in a doorway talking down angry men, being kicked, spat at. Nope! No conflict there!

You have an idea in your head about me that no amount of examples will dissuade you from.

That and the women I work for/with don't have time for hand wringing about conflicting allegiances. We are too busy keeping women and their families housed, fed and alive!

Maybe it's a matter of where you look. But I wouldn't dismiss the misogyny or racism that is your focus. I can see what you mean. Stop belittling mine! You are not seeing it...

@MildredPuppy

Im not sure this has travelled the atlantic well or indeed through age groups equally. My sons and friends, who are young teens, use Karen to mean middle aged woman correcting their behaviour or being a bit slow/annoying. So if the teens are pushing in a queue it will be a 'karen' who tells them off. They say racist for a racist.

The other terms i have never heard of although i am sure there are very racist misogynistic terms that are common in the uk.

I've seen this too. There was a clip the other day of a large grouo of of cyclists riding anti socially on London pavements. A midde aged woman was telling them to get off the pavement - there were elderly people there - and the comments were full of "such a Karen 🤣" "calm down Karen".

Interesting that the alternative behaviour would have been for her to just stand there and accept being bullied off the pavement by males on bikes.

As a BAME person, I don't think white people have a clue what we go through. As well as overt racism, we deal with being underpaid and underpromoted compared to white female and male colleagues, patronised, uninvited, condescended, talked over and dismissed.

Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen.

@CuriousaboutSamphire what does you being spat at have any to h to do with the conversation we are having. I’m finding it difficult to talk with you because you keep bringing in irrelevant situations to the discussion. We were talking about whether women would defend and help other women above other allegiances to family, nationality, class etc. Where does you being spit at com into it?

@CuriousaboutSamphire I do not have any idea about you. When did I even refer to anything about you and your character. I’m genuinely baffled about whatever you are talking about please show me where I have commented about you at all. I was giving examples of what I believe to en behaviour whereby allegiances come into conflict. There was quite literally no comment about you at all. I do not know you.

@Euridicefortuna

But those racial slurs are now seen as highly offensive, far more so than Karen even by the sorts of people that dislike the term.

Is there not a degree to which we are only seeing the level of outrage that we are about the term Karen, because it happens to have been popularised at a time where outrage at slurs is broadly taken seriously in a way it never has been before?

Karen is not the first derogatory term women have been subjected to by a long shot, there have been a huge amount. None of them have ever been taken as seriously as those used against other marginalised groups.

@TheSlayer Are people only allowed to post if they have a solution to a problem they are referencing? I never said I had any answers. Asking "what's the point of this thread" could be said about 90% of threads MN.

I had a thought and I wanted to put it to other mumsnetters to get their opinion. What is the point of you demanding answers that I never claimed to have?

@CuriousaboutSamphire you are the one making assumptions about me. How do you know what charitable activities I do or do not do. Why are you pressing that I do not have any idea of being involved in charity. Where did I say anything about you.

Never on Mumsnet have I seen a poster so consistently make up slighta that were never even alluded to.

@MildredPuppy
No i dont condone it. Ive explained several times why i am not keen on it but as yet it hasnt sunk in. He cant, as yet see the sexism. He has learned not to say it around me to avoid a lecture, but Im under no illusion that its in common useage in his age group. He doesnt use gay or derogatory terms for disabled people and thats not widespread in his friends because several of them are gay or have disabled siblings.

So they don’t use those terms because they can empathise with gay and disabled people because they know gay and disabled people personally.

Do they not know any older women personally, or are they just rank misogynists who didn’t care about older women?

Don’t* care

@phishy

As a BAME person, I don't think white people have a clue what we go through. As well as overt racism, we deal with being underpaid and underpromoted compared to white female and male colleagues, patronised, uninvited, condescended, talked over and dismissed.

Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen.

You don't have to prioritise anyone's feelings at all. Just don't use a sexist slur.

I'm definitely leaving you to it now @cinammonbuns

If you can't see it then you can't see it!

I suppose I was interested in taking the thread to somewhere more intellectual or broadening the discussion.

It's a bit he says, she says and it could raise some interesting points.

But instead it's a stick to beat women with.

Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen.

• A proverb. But I think it depends on the audience - of course Mnetters en masse would feel aggrieved by the term.

I agree with PPs who say the term hasn’t travelled well. People don’t immediately recognise the stereotype so readily in the UK so it’s started to be used to refer to any middle aged woman who has an opinion.

It’s become quite popular among mummy bloggers to describe the kind of person who gives out unwanted parenting advice. Which is annoying, sure, but it isn’t what the term originally meant.

My dad, who loves these generation-based Internet slurs, called me a Karen on WhatsApp the other day when I pulled him up on some behaviour I didn’t like. I said I’m absolutely not a Karen, do you have any idea what a Karen is? He informed me, and I quote: ‘Yeah you are. Karen is any stroppy loud woman aged between 30-50.’

When it’s used like that it is a misogynistic slur. I see no problem with it being used to describe a particular type of racist behaviour by white women. But its meaning has evolved.

@phishy

As a BAME person, I don't think white people have a clue what we go through. As well as overt racism, we deal with being underpaid and underpromoted compared to white female and male colleagues, patronised, uninvited, condescended, talked over and dismissed.

Yet we are still expected to prioritise the feelings of white women when they are hurt by the term Karen.

Not prioritise them, just not out and out dismiss them?

Nobody knows exactly what it's like to be somebody else. But it only seems to be women that are constantly told the issues they face don't matter and that all other marginalised groups are more important/have it worse.

I don't understand why people find it so difficult to just allow for misogyny to also matter.

I've never heard of the other terns mentioned by the OP. I am rather tired, though, of my own name being thrown back at me, and countless other middle aged women, for having the sheer nerve to express an opinion, sometimes on the most unimportant things. Misogyny is alive and kicking in this world. You have identified how the slur started, OP, but it seems to have left you behind in its tracks.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken
What a strange comment. Yes i think there is a lot if misogyny in the uk and yes youth culture absorbs and carries it out. Its much more socially acceptable to be misogynistic amoungst teens than it is racist, homophobic or ableist as far as i can see.

I am pleased that you and others were able to tackle the whole of misogyny in one quick conversation with your teen and halted it enturely but I am funding that it is a series of conversations with mine and that unluke other issues there isnt the same back up from schools and wider society dont see some of it either

Surely the fact that teens cling to Karen but understand racism, homophobia etc is wrong just underlines the fact that misogyny is accepted largely by society.

Which is why women who object to Karen are told to shut up.

@TheSlayer

I suppose I was interested in taking the thread to somewhere more intellectual or broadening the discussion.

It's a bit he says, she says and it could raise some interesting points.

But instead it's a stick to beat women with.

A pp listed some excellent points that would answer your question. I agree it would be great if the discussion went that way.

I haven't contributed as I honestly don't know, not because I'm avoiding the question. I don't have the relevant experience or knowledge to tackle that particular subject. Happy to learn from others though.