To think the name 'Karen' is only considered misogynistic because it refers to white women?

[FloofyCushion]

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

@FloofyCushion

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling. The only reason the name Karen is considered so offensive is because it refers to white women.

Whenever the term Karen is mentioned on here, posters will fall over themselves to say how misogynistic it is and that it silences women. But it doesn't refer to ALL women, only white women. A certain type of very entitled white woman that derives pleasure from getting people she believes to be beneath her into trouble with authority. Its also used for racist women that attempt to get black people arrested for simply existing in close proximity to them.

All of the stereotypical names for ethnic minorities were never considered misogynistic, although they were racist. Obviously calling someone a Karen for simply speaking up for herself is horrible, but isn't it more prejudice than misogyny? It seems like stereotyping women's names according to their race was never a problem until it happened to white women. Interested to hear what other people think.

I have never in my life ever seen, heard or read of anyone being referred to by those generic names as an insult. Indeed, the only one of those names I even know is Maria. If people with those ethnicities or names are offended by their use, then they and others are more than welcome to complain vociferously.

In the meantime, the word 'Karen' is used as a misogynistic put-down and it should stop.

I've never heard of any of those names.
The only name based insult I've heard for my mixed race friend is whoopee. Obviously called out but it was a black guy who did it to her so I just told him to shut up being obviously provocative. I couldn't accuse h of racism seeing as I'm white.
It was definitely meant to be nasty though.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I’m not talking about things such as that. That is you choosing to give time to a charity and cause you care about. It has nothing to do with conflicting allegiances. I mean situations when for example a women would defend her sons and cover up his crimes when he has rape killed abused etc .another woman or when people defended their racist or mysogynistic family on social media. The incident a few months ago at an Irish train station is one example. That is an example or conflicting allegiances and women choosing to not side with other women. I.e on council estates with people of all races the white women starting a campaign to get black people evicted for absolutely no reason except tor the misguided belief that they were taking jobs. As if systematic austerity and poor education as the the reason they didn’t have jobs. This is an example of a conflicting allegiances not charitable activities which is commendable but aren’t really in conflict with anything else.

Cinnamon buns. Have you read David Lanny's book. It discusses why immigration and jobs have become a preoccupation of white people in poor communities. It's very understanding and not at all judgemental, merely trying to get to the bottom of identity politics. Thoroughly recommend. Clever guy.

[quote RaindropsOnRosie]@Hoppinggreen It's a very Karen stereotype that all women labelled Karen have vaginas.

But you're right, having an opinion that is harmful generally does make one a Karen.

I don't see why people are worried that racists, transphobes, nazis, ableists, etc are being called 'Karen'. If it's such a bad name, surely they deserve it?[/quote]
Well all women DO actually have vaginas.
I don’t think calling racists etc something is an issue but why not simply call them Racists? The problem is that people use “Karen” and the other names mentioned to silence women who do anything other than meekly keep quiet on any number of issues.

I think it would be a lot harder to pit white and black women against each other if white women acknowledged the racism faced by black women at the hands of white women without trying to bury it in a whole heap of whataboutary.

I'm happy to acknowledge that black women face racism at the hands of white woman.

It has nothing to do with Karen being used as a slur against older women who voice an opinion often by white men.

I still think this is a highly manipulative thread designed to create discord.
With the focus on division rather than any positive action of any sort.

That said I've posted on it myself twice now so as my dc would say, I've played myself!

I saw a tweet that said something along the lines of black women were referred to as Shaniqua for years, Hispanics as Maria or Guadalupe, and Asian women as Ling Ling.

Where did this happen, as I’ve never heard of these names either (apart from Maria)?

@paddlingon

I think it would be a lot harder to pit white and black women against each other if white women acknowledged the racism faced by black women at the hands of white women without trying to bury it in a whole heap of whataboutary.

I'm happy to acknowledge that black women face racism at the hands of white woman.

It has nothing to do with Karen being used as a slur against older women who voice an opinion often by white men.

I still think this is a highly manipulative thread designed to create discord.
With the focus on division rather than any positive action of any sort.

That said I've posted on it myself twice now so as my dc would say, I've played myself!

Indeed. I've asked op directly what changes they'd like to see to combat racism and sexism and they and others have been curiously silent on the matter.

@TheSlayer maybe the OP has not replied because that was not the question she posed in the OP. Maybe she has no ideas about what to do to tackle it. What are your ideas?

If the 'Karens' don't like being called Karen, they shouldn't act like a Karen.

You later wafgled about harmful opinions when several PP have pointed out that it's used pretty much to try to shut up any woman offering an opinion (see the PP about the helium balloons)

Cinnamonbuns - you seem quite jaded. I don't have any women in my family, friends or acquaintances who act as you describe. I did once know a woman who tried to excuse her child-abusing husband but he went to jail and she vanished from my life.

I have a great female support network (my male friends are also pretty great) who have no truck with misogeny, racism, ableism etc and fir that I'm very glad. My DDs have fantastic supportive women friends and that gives me hope for the future.

But we really need to stay ever vigilant and active against these things.

I've never head those others names used in that way, so (imo) that can't have been nearly as widespread as "Karen".

My problem with it is that it's a real name used by many, many real people who don't deserve to have their name be turned into an insult. That's what disgusts me, not the "calling out" of an annoying type of person, be they male or female.

I'm not okay with using a real name to mean "racist white woman" or "entitled woman who always wants to speak to the manager".

@Brefugee thank you but I’m not jaded. Just have had a different experience to you and you may be surprised that in your supportive female network when push comes to shove it may not all transpire the way you expect.

I would take kindly to posters not assuming I am jaded or have ‘ire’ as has been stated. None of these accusations have been pointed at anybody else even other posters who have posted much more angrily. Thank you.

@TheSlayer

Let's try this another way op. What steps do you think would be more effective to tackle racism and sexism in the UK than calling people Karen?

I think schools should ensure they have at least 50% representation of women in the curriculum, a good balance of black and Asian Brits and a good understanding of the problems caused by empire.

I'd like grammar schools to be merged into the general population and grammar streams to be regularly teacher and outside agency(not tests) monitored, with mentoring in place for children of all backgrounds to ensure opportunity for gifted children regardless of race.

I'd like the minimum wage to be raised and inner cities in particular to build industry that can allow people of all races to earn a livable wage.

I'd like the police to be thoroughly reformed to ensure racial and misogynistic instances are treated with the gravity they deserve.

I'd like statues etc that depict slavers to be either signed as such or be put in museums where all the facts, not just cherry picked ones are layed bare.

I'd like good representation of women and black and Asian Brits on currency in statues and television.

I'd like racist incidents to be fully investigated including how they originated and can be prevented. This would mean using money not just placating words.

All of this can be accomplished without name calling.

My ideas. I'd also like to point out my previous comments on my work in education.

I don't think ops really presented any ideas. Problems not solutions. I could be wrong, happy to have quotes.

I'd actually really welcome a practical conversation as always looking for ideas to implement in education.

@TheSlayer

Let's try this another way op. What steps do you think would be more effective to tackle racism and sexism in the UK than calling people Karen?

I think schools should ensure they have at least 50% representation of women in the curriculum, a good balance of black and Asian Brits and a good understanding of the problems caused by empire.

I'd like grammar schools to be merged into the general population and grammar streams to be regularly teacher and outside agency(not tests) monitored, with mentoring in place for children of all backgrounds to ensure opportunity for gifted children regardless of race.

I'd like the minimum wage to be raised and inner cities in particular to build industry that can allow people of all races to earn a livable wage.

I'd like the police to be thoroughly reformed to ensure racial and misogynistic instances are treated with the gravity they deserve.

I'd like statues etc that depict slavers to be either signed as such or be put in museums where all the facts, not just cherry picked ones are layed bare.

I'd like good representation of women and black and Asian Brits on currency in statues and television.

I'd like racist incidents to be fully investigated including how they originated and can be prevented. This would mean using money not just placating words.

All of this can be accomplished without name calling.

This. Well said.

@ChittyChittyBangBangChicken it may surprise you to learn that Shaniqua and Ling Ling are also real names.

OP I completely agree with you. If it hadn't caught on we'd all be living in idle bliss ignorance. Also why a lot of 'feminist discourse' is also considered garbage by a lot of ethnic minority women - because it just doesn't represent them.

Im not sure this has travelled the atlantic well or indeed through age groups equally. My sons and friends, who are young teens, use Karen to mean middle aged woman correcting their behaviour or being a bit slow/annoying. So if the teens are pushing in a queue it will be a 'karen' who tells them off. They say racist for a racist.

The other terms i have never heard of although i am sure there are very racist misogynistic terms that are common in the uk.

@TheSlayer no I think you are detracting from the point of the thread. The OP was not asking about solving racism or misogyny simply asking a question about a pattern that has noticed. She does not need to have a plan to solve racism to start a discussion.

[quote cinammonbuns]@ChittyChittyBangBangChicken it may surprise you to learn that Shaniqua and Ling Ling are also real names.[/quote]
Well, obviously. It may surprise you to learn that I know that. Well, to be fully honest, I don't think I've never heard of anyone named "Ling Ling", specifically, but I'm not shocked that it's an actual name.

My point was that I've never heard people use those names as an insult for a group of people. I'm very doubtful that they have been, to the degree and intensity that we not see "Karen" tossed around. Maybe it happened before the Internet was around?

I still think this is a highly manipulative thread designed to create discord.
With the focus on division rather than any positive action of any sort.

Clear as day.

I would take kindly to posters not assuming I am jaded or have ‘ire’ as has been stated. None of these accusations have been pointed at anybody else even other posters who have posted much more angrily.

Fair enough but I can only go by what you write. And i'll turn it on you now: you don't know anything about what my life has been like so... Various of my friends have really stepped up in ways I really didn't think possible.

I've never heard either Maria, Shamiqua or Ling in the UK. I think it's unfair to use the name Karen. I know some nice ones! It's unfair to use Maria, Shanique or Ling in any derogatory fashion too. So using Karen doesn't somehow make up for the fact that Americans use other names too.

@MildredPuppy do you condone your son using Karen in this way? Don't you tell him not to, as you would if you heard him saying "gay" or any of the derogatory insults for disabled people I hear some teens say?

[quote cinammonbuns]@TheSlayer no I think you are detracting from the point of the thread. The OP was not asking about solving racism or misogyny simply asking a question about a pattern that has noticed. She does not need to have a plan to solve racism to start a discussion.[/quote]
Nobody is detracting from the thread. It is all relevant to the debate.

@Brefugee I didn’t suggest they didn’t?