Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

I set up a Twitter account about a year ago - that was obviously a mistake, but I did it to keep up with the news and Brexit (as someone who is anti-Brexit). I had to stop going on it because it just seemed like I was constantly reading different variations of 'England/English people are shit' and it is very wearing. It almost seemed like it was a sort of moral failing to be English or to only have a British passport. And whilst you could say it's 'only Twitter', there are obviously real people behind it.

I also kind of resent being told it's okay because of my ancestors or second home owners, since any research into my family tree seems to show a long line of farm labourers and poor people.

I love Wales. But I have encountered when going into a local cafe, when everyone is speaking English they will suddenly switch to Welsh, etc. when they hear you speak. Not paranoia but has quite clearly happened a few times. Things like that make me sad, I go to Wales multiple times per year and positively contribute

@raskolnikova

I set up a Twitter account about a year ago - that was obviously a mistake, but I did it to keep up with the news and Brexit (as someone who is anti-Brexit). I had to stop going on it because it just seemed like I was constantly reading different variations of 'England/English people are shit' and it is very wearing. It almost seemed like it was a sort of moral failing to be English or to only have a British passport. And whilst you could say it's 'only Twitter', there are obviously real people behind it.

I also kind of resent being told it's okay because of my ancestors or second home owners, since any research into my family tree seems to show a long line of farm labourers and poor people.

I agree. You can get thrown in jail nowadays, just for saying you're English.

Because we keep voting in the people who keep these opinions.

Some people are voting these people in. The vast majority of people I know didn’t vote for our current government or brexit. You can’t generalise in this way without know what views people actually hold.

As I said, it’s ok to dislike the people in power, but to dislike a whole nation seems very small minded to me.

I get the second home argument. But that’s more a wealth issue than an English issue. Rural and costal parts of England have the same issue with wealthy city dwellers buying up houses as second homes and pushing house prices up to making them out of reach to a lot of locals.

I also personally find that it's taboo to say 'Im English', but the norm for someone to say 'im Welsh/scottish' i.e. by way of choosing to be more specific than saying 'im british' (which I also happily say and more often)

Of course it’s not acceptable.

I don’t think it’s comparable to the level of discrimination experienced by Black people for example and usually being English can come with a lot of privilege. But that does not excuse his behaviour!

@JaniieJones

'Well, lot's of countries have problems with the English, and its not like theres no basis for it. No excuse to be personally rude to people, but when your ancestors killed and subjugated theirs, and/or your countryfolk wreck their country with your second homes and remote governing......it's not going to go away.'

Change 'English' for 'black, 'or 'Muslim' and you might just might see how xenophobic and offensive your comments are. You cannot generalise and attack an entire nature or race. It really is shocking that hating Engkis peope is so widespread.

We aren't responsible for the actions of our ancestors.

...But substitute 'English' for 'White' (or rephrase the whole thing so you're talking about men and the oppression of women) and the whole thing is entirely reasonable.

Funny how privilege works, innit? Maybe you need to check yours.

^

Did you really have to write that?

@gorginabambina

It was only sixty years ago a welsh town was flooded to make a reservoir for water to supply Liverpool. People were evicted from their homes and farms and it was one of the last standing welsh speaking communities in Wales. A cemetery was flooded, it was supposed to be concreted and made secure but never happed. This isn't centuries ago. People still remember this as they were alive when it happened. This also happened in the late 1800, people losing there homes and lively hoods so the British people could drink water and have a bath.

I can totally understand the resentment towards English people.

Well that isn't unique to Wales:

www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/19128568.mardale-green--happened-cumbrias-sunken-village/

The Starbucks Mermaid I mean.

@SorryWoman

You'd happily say the same to a black person still harbouring negative feelings about slavery or a Jewish person about the Holocaust?

@trailrunner

^

Did you really have to write that?

Yes I did. Please don't try and twist it - why is it OK to write "bastard English" but nothing else?

That isn't how I feel by the way, it's just the double standards astound me.

It is xenophobia, and it takes no account of class so is definitely not kicking up. There seems to be some deluded and ignorant view that English people were all living in Downton Abbey when the reality is their villages were being destroyed too ( still are by second home owners) and their kids sliced up by heavy machinery and shoved up chimneys or in a workhouse. There are plenty of Scottish and Welsh landowners and slavers but of course blame some English guy who came from impoverished peasants who were exploited by the industrial revolution.

It's a curious kind of selectiveness. .

Sounds more like resentmemt of holiday home owners who only live there for some of the year, rather than hating all English from what you've written!

@MizMoonshine
😳
You believe the Welsh were subject to child deportations and attempted genocide?

It's nothing new. In 2005 I was working an international job and had a welsh colleague. We were discussing the same and he stated in all seriousness that everyone despised the English, and seemed to expect me to be ashamed of my nationality. I disappointed him
A racist is a racist, regardless of who they hate. They are showing their ignorance. Just ignore it.

You only have to watch how the English government are treating the N Irish throughout and post Brexit, to see how disgracefully N Ireland, Scotland and Wales are treated. This has been going on for centuries. No wonder they hate us.

@SorryWoman

The land and language wasn't lost to cuddles and kisses.
I'm asking if you think everyone who's life has been affected by historical abuse and as a result harbours some ill will should just suck it up?

@BabyBearRus

Absolutely agree spotcheck. This altercation has really shaken me, as the woman they were having a go at was English. She only...very politely... asked them not to park in front of her drive. She spends half the year at the property, and contributes massively to the local community.

How you do you know so much about the neighbour and her community efforts if you're in holiday accommodation?

Second homes are a real problem in many Welsh (and Cornish & other) villages. In some places 75% of the houses are only occupied for part of the year. This means that village shops and pubs aren't supported year round, schools don't have enough pupils to operate and locals are priced out of the housing market. It kills the community. In Wales there's also the language thing; English incomers tend not to speak Welsh. Local customs die. I can well understand why the Welsh don't like it. Maybe your neighbour does stay there more than most - but she's still a part-time resident and her choice to do this affects everyone in the community.

That said, the man was rude and of course he shouldn't shout at her based on her background. If I went out into my street and started yelling about the bloody Irish it wouldn't go down well (Catholic school nearby so many Irish neighbours).

I don't think the papers help they encourage and spread hate.
It was heart-rending when Bukayo Saka missed the penalty, DP loves Henderson (Liverpool supporter) he wanted a win for him too.
The disgusting vile racism in the papers and twitter gives England a bad name.
I know it is a tiny percentage of people who spout the racism and don't support the players for the work they have done.

@BabyBearRus

Talking of race, my Black African-American friend recently visited north Wales with his white English wife and vowed never to step foot here again as he experienced terrible racist attitudes.

It’s awful your friend was racially abused. I can’t speak for north Wales and what it’s like there (although I’m sure people who aren’t racist outnumber the ones who are. Hopefully) However, where I live in Wales no one would have turned a hair to see your friend visiting their town, let alone racially abused them. Very multi cultural here. Far more than the places I lived in England. Cardiff bay used to be called tiger bay because it was so diverse- and it still is.

I’ve lived here for a few years (full time mind you, not “half the year”) and so far no one has given me any shit for being English. Not saying it doesn’t happen to other people but no Welsh people I’ve encountered have abused me or made me feel unwelcome.

usually being English can come with a lot of privilege

Usually? Tell that to the inhabitants of sink estates, the people on minimum wage, those with zero hours contracts. It’s arrant nonsense.

It's certainly not acceptable, I really don't think the OP should be surprised.

You are aware of the "aware of the history of these isles", and that is really a good thing. Lots of us don't have a good grasp of it. And cultural things don't/won't change in a generation, or two, or three. That's not how it works.

I'm fairly sure if I went to Belfast for the bonfires and the big marches I'd be welcomed with open arms, but probably not so in other areas. I've certainly got anti-English vibes in Scotland, but it never bothered me to be honest.

Worst I experienced was living/working in Stuttgart for a few years (football fans riot, and being a proud English supporter I was somehow "associated" with that).