Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

That's to GlendaSugarbeanIsJudgingYou.

Sorry.

Because at last the English are starting to show some independence. We chose not to be part of a homologous structure in Europe and instead forge ahead shedding ourselves of the bureaucratic encumbrances Europe entails. Sadly not all our nations agreed.
The French don't like us cos we saved their sorry asses in two world wars and they've never got over it!

We chose to be out of a homologous structure? If by that you meant that we could not be English in the EU, that's rather odd. All the other nations have kept their individuality. France is very specifically France, Latvia is Latvia, Germany is Germany etc. All very different. Presumably the tourists that came here see our country as separate and different. We're now separate and different in a very unpleasant way.

"Sadly not all our nations agreed." Indeed, Scotland and NI saw how they benefited from EU membership and voted to preserve our EU membership. Now many of the Welsh and Cornish are also seeing what the implications are for them. Some research shows that the leave vote in Wales was mainly from English incomers.

I'd like to remind you that there was an amendment calling for the Referendum Act to have a triple lock so that all the nations had to be in agreement for such an enormous constitutional change to take place.

That amendment was rejected on the grounds that the referendum was only advisory in nature.

Now the strong feeling in Scotland is that they have been dragged out against their will and Scottish independence is looking to be a very real future.

The Good Friday Agreement has been disregarded and seen as irrelevant. Yes, the border communities are angry and justifiably so. How will this pan out? Goodness knows. Seeing a valuable peace agreement trashed and disrespected is not, very much not, good.

We saved the French's sorry asses - oh my. This is just the superior attitude that feeds much of the anti-English feeling. Um - French Resistance, the contribution of the US, the Russians ????? But no - 'England won WW2 all on our own'. Give me strength.

As for bureaucracy, we're now seeing how much bureaucracy the EU saved us. The difficulties of trading with our nearest neighbours as a non member state has reduced our exports by 68% and our imports are suffering. This is without the full implementation of the border controls that will come in next year.

OP, sorry to derail but this post was such a clear example of why the English are not universally loved.

No, I'm sorry for not elaborating on Flag-Gate. :o

In 2012 It was decided to only fly the union flag over city hall on designated days which resulted in, well, mayhem during 2013.

It got really bad in many places and there was a lot of talk about it "starting the troubles all over again".

I hope you see my point that it didn't come to that, thank God but people do like to say it.

This is all Belfast BTW.

Racist, xenophobic, prejudice, who bloody cares what it is called, it is wrong. Is being insulted, ignored or disregarded worse if it is to do with colour rather the nationality ?

Nope, that’s not acceptable. Perhaps anti-English prejudice is sometimes legitimised as as ‘hitting up’ as the English have historically been seen as an oppressor.

It's xenophobia isn't it? Not racism.

@TopOfTheHour

It's wearing. I'm fed up of dickheads.

This.

It's not nice at all. Equally, the English dickheads who go on about sheepshaggers and haggis botherers. It's not funny at all but the perpetrators think they're absolutely hilarious.

I pull people up on it but am generally given the impression that I'm humourless.

The really witty people I know never, ever do this.

Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this?

It is a) not something people just 'get over' and b) politics in England currently is increasing nationalistic feeling. Johnson is an English PM who does not seem to respect the other nations, consequently anti-English attitudes are rising.

Not racism. I used to work in a hotel where guests from one region where almost always demanding and rude. We'd call them bloody whatever-ites and take a deep breathe when we saw a car with their licence plates arriving.
So prejudice, not racism.

It’s always been like that, we used to holiday in Wales when I was a kid and I heard it then, particularly in shops. I’ve only been back since for non holiday reasons, I’d never go on holiday there now.

My grandparents are/were Irish on one side Scottish on the other, my generation are mainly English because they emigrated, however there is still a lot of anti English sentiment which has always confused me, you have English family because you moved to England and had children.
As for the we can't afford to buy houses where we grew up, I grew up in East London can't afford to buy there had to move out. Largely because of people from everywhere else moving there and lots of foreign investment pushing up housing prices.
I'm actually in favour of independence if that's what the majority of the nations want.
As for the football everyone I know was cheering on Wales wanting to see them do well, and Scotland (other than when playing England) , so is a little disappointing when you hear in return a hive mind to just want any English sportsperson or team to fail.
There were many many nations involved in horrendous colonial behaviour but they don't seem to be held to account for it on an individual basis in the way Bob and Joan going on their caravan holiday in the Snowdonia national park are.

@Flamingdingus

Because at last the English are starting to show some independence. We chose not to be part of a homologous structure in Europe and instead forge ahead shedding ourselves of the bureaucratic encumbrances Europe entails. Sadly not all our nations agreed. The French don't like us cos we saved their sorry asses in two world wars and they've never got over it!

We chose to be out of a homologous structure? If by that you meant that we could not be English in the EU, that's rather odd. All the other nations have kept their individuality. France is very specifically France, Latvia is Latvia, Germany is Germany etc. All very different. Presumably the tourists that came here see our country as separate and different. We're now separate and different in a very unpleasant way.

"Sadly not all our nations agreed." Indeed, Scotland and NI saw how they benefited from EU membership and voted to preserve our EU membership. Now many of the Welsh and Cornish are also seeing what the implications are for them. Some research shows that the leave vote in Wales was mainly from English incomers.

I'd like to remind you that there was an amendment calling for the Referendum Act to have a triple lock so that all the nations had to be in agreement for such an enormous constitutional change to take place.

That amendment was rejected on the grounds that the referendum was only advisory in nature.

Now the strong feeling in Scotland is that they have been dragged out against their will and Scottish independence is looking to be a very real future.

The Good Friday Agreement has been disregarded and seen as irrelevant. Yes, the border communities are angry and justifiably so. How will this pan out? Goodness knows. Seeing a valuable peace agreement trashed and disrespected is not, very much not, good.

We saved the French's sorry asses - oh my. This is just the superior attitude that feeds much of the anti-English feeling. Um - French Resistance, the contribution of the US, the Russians ????? But no - 'England won WW2 all on our own'. Give me strength.

As for bureaucracy, we're now seeing how much bureaucracy the EU saved us. The difficulties of trading with our nearest neighbours as a non member state has reduced our exports by 68% and our imports are suffering. This is without the full implementation of the border controls that will come in next year.

OP, sorry to derail but this post was such a clear example of why the English are not universally loved.

Sorry, but I have to point out that you can't pick out the viewpoint of the dickheads in a country and then punish everyone because of them. While I would agree that there are probably more of them in England than in most countries, they still exist everywhere.

The thing about the World wars is just ridiculous, of course it wasn't the work of one nation, we were lucky being an island helped us, and there was, of course lots of resistance on the continent. I can't stand the boneheaded views of idiots such as Flamingodingus, but should I be punished for them just because I happen to have been born in the same country?

No one, but no one hates the little Englanders more than sane English people. Imagine being associated with them wherever you go? Imagine cringing at being lumped with Nigel Farage and Ann Widdecombe waving her stupid little flag in the European Parliament? Imagine seeing the football hooligans rushing the Wembley gates carrying their beer bellies and sense of entitlement with misplaced pride?

I don't mix with anyone like that though of course I've come across it and call it out when I see it. But honestly I don't think it's fair to include me as one of them, and for you to have the right to insult me because of it. It makes you no better than them.

Where I live there was a very robust vote for Remain. I'm furious about the whole mendacious Leave Campaign. I'm really fed up with the encouragement it's given xenophobes and weakminded racists. Many of us knew about the amount of bureaucracy the EU saved us. We knew about the lies perpetuated in newspapers owned by American-Australians, or Monegasque tax exiles.

So really, please don't lump us all together. It's playing the same game they do.

I'm English and went to University in (South) Wales. Never encountered any problems in the 5 or so years I lived there, and I didn't just stick to a "safe" University bubble.

DP is Welsh, but his accent is fairly English-passing apart from certain words. We live in England, and when some English people find out he's Welsh, their attitude towards him shifts negatively.

But sure, the Welsh are the problem.

You can't be racist towards an oppressor.

I'm with you, the rise in English bashing isn't acceptable. Using your football analogies, if England were knocked out of a tournament, I'd definitely support Wales and Scotland as my second teams. My Scottish friends absolutely hate England and would support any team they're playing (yet ironically still choose to live in England).

I wonder when we became almost embarrassed to be English? When I fill in forms asking for country of birth, I usually write Britain. I'm guessing most Welsh or Scottish people would write Wales or Scotland. I feel semi-awkward when I put England yet I'm proud to be English.

The definition of the English
The English people are an ethnic group and nation native to England, who speak the English language and share a common history and culture. The English identity is of early medieval origin, when they were known in Old English as the Angelcynn ('race or tribe of the Angles').
we are native to our country, and an ethnic group but we are not a race. My DNA says I am mainly celtic (Welsh) but I consider myself English (and I oppress no-one).

Saying it’s not racism is splitting hairs really.

The English, Welsh, Irish etc have physical differences between the groups which many people could identify given, say, a group of 100 people from each country. Different culture, history etc.

In much the same way that, (for example) Japanese people hating on Chinese people or Chinese people hating on Tibetans is also racism. Yes they are the same “race” - Asian. But they are of different ethnicity and different culture, tend to have different physical identifiers, different religion etc. It’s racism.

I am with you on this one OP and totally sick of it. I also get fed up with people who criticise a neighbourhood or event as “too white” (I have only ever heard white ppl use this term but find it as offensive as if they had said “too black” or “too Chinese”). Just nasty.

@Grimacingfrog that was not @Flamingdingus view point, someone else said that about the world wars, I believe it was @cuparfull at 3.55 this morning

I think it's fair to say, treat others as you would want to be treated yourself - really makes all this easier.

A lot of English tourists to my area appear to not realise that Wales is its own country and therefore has its own covid approach, the amount of people I've heard having a moan about 'the fucking sheep shaggers' because their mate Boris told them it was 'freedom day' and they dont have to wear a mask

My aunt used to live in Capel Celyn and still tears up whenever she talks about it
medium.datadriveninvestor.com/the-drowning-of-capel-celyn-109496dc611e

The attempted eradication of our language and customs by the English ruling class

The gutting of Welsh communities by holiday homes and the subsequent exit from the EU due to the English retirees
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

That said, I have no problem with targeted and specific criticising of the government/military of country X. Or indeed criticise people because they support some action of their government. But that’s criticism of an opinion that is widely held in country X, not targeting the people en mass.

There's a hangover of hate for the English in Wales from the centuries old abuse we suffered at their hands. Our land was invaded, our castles were stolen, our language was literally beaten out of our children.
To this day we can't fart without their say so.
So they are sometimes still thought of as bastard English. It happens. Not every Indian is fond of the English either, for their historical abuse.
Rape and pillage half the world for their resources and see if you don't piss some people off.

I don’t really think that you can say that the English and Welsh are separate races, therefore it can’t really be racism. (I’m part English and part welsh, but have always lived in England).

However anyone who holds are prejudice against a whole group of people and is incapable of seeing that people are individuals is an idiot. I never understood the hostility towards the English from the other nations, I’m aware of the history, but the hostility seems aimed at all the English not just the people in power, I just don’t get it 🤷‍♀️

@bunnybuggs

But the term Race - by which we mean white, black and asian (possibly Hispanic) is so broad as to be scientifically meaningless.

There are obvious physical differences between an “average“ Japanese and Chinese person and an “average” Irish and English person. Skin tone, height, typical features, language/accent etc. Saying prejudice “cannot be racism” because those countries do not oppose one another (eg “those people are ASIAN and those people are BLACK!) in our totally unscientific concept of Race is silly. Don’t people say there’s more genetic variance in Africa than in the rest of the world combined?