Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

@LizzieW1969

Sorry, I realise now that you didn’t mean that. The thought was so funny that I couldn’t resist commenting.

I have heard others say that people switch to Welsh. But it might help to learn some Welsh?

Well in my defence I was 7 and this was the 80's and not even many Welsh young people spoke Welsh then.

The irony of this is my father, who grew up in Shropshire, could speak Welsh.

I never forget a Welsh friend of mine coming to my parents house. Despite living in England and been my friend, she hated the English. I never told my father this. When she came over, my dad just started talking to her in Welsh... you should have seen her face! An English man speaking Welsh!

@Wroxie I wasn't trying to suggest your family had injustices specifically regarding the slave trade that they or you needs to address. I was more referring to you mentioned regarding idea of your mother stealing something, and I agree, if the same thing happened in my family, and I found out, I would either work to fix that, or turn my mother over to the police.
I was also thinking about you tracing your families historical injustices pre slave trade, because there will be some and fix those, but as you have stated, you can only tace back to 1830, you can't trace before then, so it is not reasonable to expect you to fix those. Even if you could trace before then, it is not reasonable to expect you to fix those either.
The people who needed to fix their Karma so to speak are dead. They've been dead for a while, it can't be fixed. To expect their descendants to fix the karma on their behalf is wrong in my opinion.

@BabyBearRus

Absolutely agree that the English have had a lot to answer for. As do many other nations, e.g. France, Spain, USA, Canada, Australia, to name a few. But when does it end? When do we reach a point where we can try to overcome the past and work towards a more harmonious future?

As previously mentioned, both sides of my family (Welsh & Irish) recall the misery of "English occupation" (a term both sides used). During the 70s and 80s, my Irish family living in London suffered racist abuse on a daily basis. There's a brilliant study called "Suspect Communities" which compares the racism experienced by the Irish during that period to the later Islamaphobia that occurred after 9/11 (but was prevalent in England before this). Racism and prejudice towards anyone is abhorrent.

And of course there are English people who I find extremely annoying, especially the arrogance of some holiday makers who prance around like they own the place. This quite rightly irks the locals. But I also have felt the same way about many people from other nations. Some people are complete dickheads regardless of their race or nationality.

But last night was uncalled for, to verbally attack an older woman on her own, on the basis of her nationality is simply wrong. All because she simply asked them not to park in front of her drive. Such prejudiced and threatening behaviour should not have to be tolerated by anyone. So, no, despite obviously being sympathetic to my Celtic history, I feel that the behaviour of the perpetrators was absolutely shameful.

For goodness sake, how can you blame an entire people for the sins of the past? Frankly, hatred perpetuates hatred and fear. Have we learnt nothing from history?

The way forward can be found at the ballot box and through education and civic duty at the community level.

But at which ballot box? The system in the UK isn't fair, and doesn't really represent NI, Wales and Scotland, so voices aren't really heard in parliament, @BabyBearRus. To create harmony, an overhaul of the UK system is needed, and there needs to be a full understanding (note that I say understanding and not justification) of why people in the other three nations feel grievances.

No, prejudice is not okay, but people are often angry and blame whoever or whatever they see as representing the thing that they are angry about. It's not right, but it's often human nature. If there was more actual listening in the UK then I really think things would be better. This isn't about the past (though some people who are ignorant might blame the past because they don't know any better). It's about the feeling of smaller nations of being ignored, disrespected, trodden on, used, or made to feel unimportant in a union that is supposed to respect each of the four nations as equals. Those feelings are legitimate although the prejudice brought about by those feelings is not. Address the legitimate resentment, though, and the prejudice will also be addressed. As it stands, nobody is listening.

But last night was uncalled for, to verbally attack an older woman on her own, on the basis of her nationality is simply wrong

I agree 100%.

This bitch is off to bed. Nos da!

As an English person living in Scotland, I was repeatedly beaten up at school for being English, Constantly made fun of etc, My life was hell purely because I am English and living in Scotland. It's horrible and still affects me over a decade later.
I wouldn't call it racism though. Definitely prejudice.

The whole business becomes madness because most families have a mix of ancestry. I don't consider my own family very special but...

On my Dad's side they came the England in the late 1600s after a law change in France removed legal protection for Protestants and so Protestants started to be persecuted.

On my Mum's side they moved from Germany in 1920s to escape antisemetism.

It's hard to know if I'm meant to be 'the oppressor' or the oppressed . I suspect most are similar to varying degrees.

English person here

It’s perfectly acceptable for other countries to mock us... we conquered half the fucking world and still haven’t given sovereignty back to anyone who didn’t force us

When the British museums are full of British artefacts and the Welsh aren’t under Westminster then we can talk about the poor oppressed English folks getting a mouthful in their second homes 🙄

Until then shut up and count your privileges

@HerrenaHarridan

English person here

It’s perfectly acceptable for other countries to mock us... we conquered half the fucking world and still haven’t given sovereignty back to anyone who didn’t force us

When the British museums are full of British artefacts and the Welsh aren’t under Westminster then we can talk about the poor oppressed English folks getting a mouthful in their second homes 🙄

Until then shut up and count your privileges

Exactly this!!

Yanbu. There are large numbers of people in Wales and Scotland who are routinely racist to English people. And it isn’t ok.

Racism is any form should not be tolerated. How can we expect it to be eradicated, if people think it's acceptable towards certain groups of people? Racism has no place in this world full stop. That includes if you're English and white. The laws have to protect us all.

In any form*

@HerrenaHarridan what a stupid and nasty message. And by the way Britain gave sovereignty back to the UAE despite eg Dubai asking Britain to stay. Don’t bother to reply I won’t be checking back.

@HerrenaHarridan

English person here

It’s perfectly acceptable for other countries to mock us... we conquered half the fucking world and still haven’t given sovereignty back to anyone who didn’t force us

When the British museums are full of British artefacts and the Welsh aren’t under Westminster then we can talk about the poor oppressed English folks getting a mouthful in their second homes 🙄

Until then shut up and count your privileges

What she said

@SourAppleChew

Following on from my previous comment which was conveniently ignored, I don't understand why reparations for the non-enslaved descendants of slaves who died hundreds of years ago seems to be put ahead of liberating those currently enslaved.

It's almost like black slaves matter (more than other slaves).

This.

@marmaladehound

It's not acceptable but it's been going on since as long as I can recall. I remember been on holiday with my parents age 7 and walking into a pub for lunch, as soon as other customers heard us, they all stopped talking in English abs started talking in Welsh. Hey ho! In my experience it's more common from the Welsh and french more than anywhere else. Never experienced it from the Irish though. But other than piss me off it doesn't affect my life in any other way. So it's not a prejudice worth giving much thought too! It's certainly not a prejudice comparable to others that are everywhere that really do impact peoples lives.

Are you saying that you go into pubs in France and they are all talking English, and switch to French as soon as they hear you?

@MNHQ think we could do with a tidy in here

Whaam. I'm not missing your points, I just don't agree with them. I think class is the more important factor and it's a mistake to view events primarily through a nation perspective, since poor English people were/are not treated any better by the ruling elite than poor Welsh, Scots or Irish people. I don't dispute that there are historic grievances, some more fair than others, but these should be aimed at the establishment, not the ordinary people on the receiving end of abuse, who didn't actually do anything to deserve it! They are just normal people going about their business.Hating someone on account of their nationality is just plain wrong.

As for equality between the nations - that's purely a numbers game. If there are 6 million people in Scotland and 55 million in England, then they aren't going to be equally weighted politically. This is true for things like Brexit. Scotland might have wanted to remain in the EU but it doesn't meet the criteria for independent membership and is part of a union where the majority of people voted to leave. It can't have what it wants because it doesn't have a big enough population to get the deciding vote. It's unfortunate for those who want a different outcome but that's the nature of democracy - majority decides.

Where equality really matters is in housing, health, education and opportunities. Each devolved nation is responsible for some of this itself. Scotland hasn't been an innocent bystander in its own history, forced to collude in its own oppression - much of its issues are caused by decisions taken in Scotland by Scottish people.

I would agree though that public funded organisations that are supposed to represent all the nations of the UK ought to be less SE England centric and recognise that there are different needs in Scotland, Wales and NI which should be served fairly. I'm thinking of institutions like the BBC which was mentioned up thread, but this could apply to the UK government, which does behave as if no one lives outside of London.

I don't really disagree that if Scotland wants to leave the union it should be able to. But it's not realistic to have a vote every 10 years. The referendum was supposed to be 'once in a generation'. Politicians can't keep stirring the pot and campaigning until they get a result they like. It's destabilising imo and negates any value that a vote has. It's not like it can be easily undone if in a few years the majority indicate in polls that they've changed their minds.

For goodness sake, how can you blame an entire people for the sins of the past? Frankly, hatred perpetuates hatred and fear. Have we learnt nothing from history?

Mmm part of the problem for me is that it isn't just sins of the past is it? How many people considered NI when they voted for Brexit? How much scorn was poured on ROI for standing up and saying hold up there is an international peace treaty between two countries to be considered here? We were branded as being difficult and being top big for our boots for giving more of a shit about NI than the UK ever did in the Brexit talks. I know this wasn't all English people but you can bet the majority of it was. This is just one thing I can mention, it is late so won't go into more.

I'm not saying 'racism' or xenophobia is acceptable but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that all that has happened was centuries ago and should be 'left in the past' either. NI isn't in the past, the effects of Brexit will be felt in NI for a long time to come.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Whaam. I'm not missing your points, I just don't agree with them. I think class is the more important factor and it's a mistake to view events primarily through a nation perspective, since poor English people were/are not treated any better by the ruling elite than poor Welsh, Scots or Irish people. I don't dispute that there are historic grievances, some more fair than others, but these should be aimed at the establishment, not the ordinary people on the receiving end of abuse, who didn't actually do anything to deserve it! They are just normal people going about their business.Hating someone on account of their nationality is just plain wrong.

As for equality between the nations - that's purely a numbers game. If there are 6 million people in Scotland and 55 million in England, then they aren't going to be equally weighted politically. This is true for things like Brexit. Scotland might have wanted to remain in the EU but it doesn't meet the criteria for independent membership and is part of a union where the majority of people voted to leave. It can't have what it wants because it doesn't have a big enough population to get the deciding vote. It's unfortunate for those who want a different outcome but that's the nature of democracy - majority decides.

Where equality really matters is in housing, health, education and opportunities. Each devolved nation is responsible for some of this itself. Scotland hasn't been an innocent bystander in its own history, forced to collude in its own oppression - much of its issues are caused by decisions taken in Scotland by Scottish people.

I would agree though that public funded organisations that are supposed to represent all the nations of the UK ought to be less SE England centric and recognise that there are different needs in Scotland, Wales and NI which should be served fairly. I'm thinking of institutions like the BBC which was mentioned up thread, but this could apply to the UK government, which does behave as if no one lives outside of London.

I don't really disagree that if Scotland wants to leave the union it should be able to. But it's not realistic to have a vote every 10 years. The referendum was supposed to be 'once in a generation'. Politicians can't keep stirring the pot and campaigning until they get a result they like. It's destabilising imo and negates any value that a vote has. It's not like it can be easily undone if in a few years the majority indicate in polls that they've changed their minds.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously I give up. If you can't see how you are missing what I'm saying, there's no point in talking. And you are missing it, not disagreeing with it. Or at least, you don't appear to understand what you think you are disagreeing with. But never mind.

Theres a lot of extreme delusionalism and one sidedness on this thread. Almost head in the sand. The english fans booed when the other team got the ball throughout the euros this year, and during the national anthems. The Italians made jokes, waved and smiled at the opposition throughout. It's not okay people cheered, but the average person wouldn't act quite as shocked as others are. As for people talking about history, in particular Germany, other countries only see that there is so much pride around countries being taken over, whereas Germany has always shown to want to repent. I know this is over simplifying things and nobody deserves to have people talk like that about them.

"HerrenaHarridan

English person here

It’s perfectly acceptable for other countries to mock us... we conquered half the fucking world and still haven’t given sovereignty back to anyone who didn’t force us

When the British museums are full of British artefacts and the Welsh aren’t under Westminster then we can talk about the poor oppressed English folks getting a mouthful in their second homes 🙄

Until then shut up and count your privileges"

What a peculiar and nasty message. Frankly, to sanction one kind of prejudice against a particular people can only lead down a very slippery slope to sanctioning other racist or prejudiced behaviour against other races or nationalities that supposedly "deserve," it.

So, if we had a homosexual English man being subjected to prejudice based on his sexuality and nationality, is this then acceptable? Does the abuse of one aspect of his makeup warrant outrage, while the other does not?

Come on people, prejudice is prejudice and is morally reprehensible.

@WorraLiberty

Yes, the whataboutery began pretty quickly.

So far we have

Black people
American people
Russian people

That's not what the OP is about.

Whataboutery 🤣 So funny. I do love mumsnet terms.

I agree, its always a race to the bottom. God forbid people reply and deal with what the OP is complaining about. Theres always something much far worse and making them feel bad for posting when this is what mumsnet is for!

Ultimately, it's about common decency and respect towards another human being. I seriously can't understand how anyone can condone any form of abusive and prejudiced behaviour against another human being.

“She spends half the year at her property”

It’s go nothing to do with them being English and everything to do with that ^^

A lot of Welsh communities are sick of rich people from England buying up all the houses for their second homes, making their local areas totally unaffordable.