Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

'how proud he is to be English because they decided to stop trading in human beings only AFTER they'd bled the trade dry '

I'll ask you again @wroxie, the UK stopped slave trading in 1807 the US in 1863 so it was nothing to do with it being 'after they bled the trade dry'. The Americans carried on for decades. You must be ashamed to be American yes?

@BrozTito don't condescend to me. The money in the slave trade was declining, the writing was on the wall, and it was only after hundreds of years of building massive, unfathomable fortunes that they decided to call it a day.

Classic Mumsnet, a man posts some ignorant, racist nonsense which includes a sweet little line about how proud he is to be English because they decided to stop trading in human beings only AFTER they'd bled the trade dry and set up dynasties of generational wealth that persist until today but I'm the one who's lost the moral high ground because I called a gammon a gammon.

A racist slur is a racist slur whatever 'reasons' you give for using it.

@DewDew83

But it wasn’t just many centuries ago that England done “shitty” things. It’s not that long ago that English soldiers were over here, shooting innocent people for the crime of being Irish, in Ireland. That’s just one example. In fact we are still suffering as a result of the result. Yup, and in the last century Welsh children were still being beaten in school for speaking Welsh.

Haven't read the full thread but it's not that long ago that Priti Patel threatened (laughably) to "starve" the Irish. This is what people are seeing, hearing and witnessing from the English unfortunately.

I also don't buy all this crap about 'white people can't experience racism due to being privileged'.

By that logic Asian American men can't experience racism due to their Asian privilege of having better financial and health outcomes than white males.

@JaniieJones my mother was black and the granddaughter of a woman born into slavery, and my father was Candadian (of German descent, I think) so I don't really think that's as much of a gotcha question as you think it might be.

Slavery did continue for many years in the US as they had a self-sustaining population of enslaved people, they didn't need new supplies and hadn't for a while by the time Britain pulled out.

@JaniieJones in fact the US banned the import of new enslaved people in 1808... so... any other questions?

@SourAppleChew

I also don't buy all this crap about 'white people can't experience racism due to being privileged'.

By that logic Asian American men can't experience racism due to their Asian privilege of having better financial and health outcomes than white males.

There is a reason for Stop Asian hate campaign in US... (There was also an interesting lawsuit against Harvard where it was suggested Harvard kept numbers of Asian pllicants artificially low with quotas. Still ongoing IIRC)

Also, I know people will say that's xenophobia, but there are cases after cases of EEs being attacked in uk for being EE. Few killed.

'in fact the US banned the import of new enslaved people in 1808... so... any other questions?'

Yes. Slavery in the US continued until 1863 maybe without 'imported' slaves but a 'self sustaining slave population' so again, you must be ashamed to be American if we are all responsible for our ancestors appalling behaviour??

@StoneofDestiny I didn't say women got the vote straight away, I said it was a stepping stone, i'm aware it was only after the middle class got the vote and then after more time the working class men got the vote, and then after women proved during WW1 we were capable of much more, did women get the vote (and you know suffragetts).

@Wroxie I was merely making the comparison that Empires across the globe don't get the same stick the British empire did, see British empire, not English. And I sure as hell aren't going to apologise for the Slave trade, It was sick and wrong, but not soley purpetrated by the English, and I'm also not going to feel guilty about it, it had nothing to do with me. I'm 27, not 250, no-one in this day and age has a damn thing to do with it. We should remember it, abhore it and learn from it. People really don't like to remember that a lot of African rulers would dictate the supply of captaives to become slaves for the Atlantic slave trade for their own profit. It wasn't solely dictated upon African by Europeans.
This article may be of interest (I don't know why it won't link, but you can still copy and paste into google, should you so desire):
jamaica-gleaner.com/article/focus/20151025/africas-role-slavery
The Arabs had a massive slave trade for centuries, taking the Mediterraneans and Africans primarily (may have recalled this incorrectly, apologies if so), but aren't spoken about with the same contempt as the english are.
I did find it interesting that you called yourself a Black Woman from America, would you say you are African American or American? Apologies but I find this be an intruiging part of the language in America, I have rarely heard a black person call themselves simply American (Honestly I am limited with american interaction, purely basing this from T.V. shows, interviews and such). Over here I find most people from England will call themselves British rather than English which I find odd, but a Scot will say they are Scottish, and a Welshman, Welsh.

@thedancingbear it's really not though is it. You think it's wrong for people to know a nation they are part of were participating in something disgusting, then be proud of them for changing? Why is that? All anyone wants is for people to know that actions have meaning, good or bad, so why can't we celebrate the good of this action? Why can't we learn from Bad?

Tory politicians are not representative of the English any more than Nicola Sturgeon is representative of all Scots.

@JaniieJones I am fucking Black and the fucking descendant of slaves so no I am not proud to be American for that very reason and for many others. I don't even live there anymore, I haven't for 20 years. I can say a self-sustaining slave population because that's what it was. People were forced to procreate to sustain the slave population. What would you call it? Do you have different words that you would suggest I, A Black descendant of Slaves born an hour's drive away from where my fucking ancestors were enslaved, use instead? Please do enlighten me.

What is wrong with you!

@JaniieJones just to be clear, I am not the descendant of American slave owners unless they raped one of my grandmothers, hope that fucking clears it up for you.

'And I sure as hell aren't going to apologise for the Slave trade, It was sick and wrong, but not soley purpetrated by the English, and I'm also not going to feel guilty about it, it had nothing to do with me. I'm 27, not 250, no-one in this day and age has a damn thing to do with it. We should remember it, abhore it and learn from it.'

Exactly, well said.

Let's stop the English hating, recognise every country has their own historical atrocities but that doesn't mean we are in any way responsible.

I always find it funny when white people almost decree defiantly that they 'REFUSE' to apologise as though their personal apology carries any meaning or significance at all

'always find it funny when white people almost decree defiantly'

'White people'? Imagine if we changed 'white' for 'black'or 'Asian', that would be racist wouldn't it? Try not to be bigoted. Call posters out yes, but stop the generalised 'white people' crap.

@VladmirsPoutine

I always find it funny when white people almost decree defiantly that they 'REFUSE' to apologise as though their personal apology carries any meaning or significance at all

LOL, exactly this

@JaniieJones

'And I sure as hell aren't going to apologise for the Slave trade, It was sick and wrong, but not soley purpetrated by the English, and I'm also not going to feel guilty about it, it had nothing to do with me. I'm 27, not 250, no-one in this day and age has a damn thing to do with it. We should remember it, abhore it and learn from it.'

Exactly, well said.

Let's stop the English hating, recognise every country has their own historical atrocities but that doesn't mean we are in any way responsible.

Well said, are you kidding?! The spelling and grammar is atrocious.

Anyway, to answer the OP- I just can't get worked up about this

@TitchGreen my mother was Black, with a capital B. My father was Canadian (and white). I am mixed race but people see me as Black, I identify as Black, and was raised by Black people (never met my father). I never even thought much about being mixed race until I had mixed race children of my own who are white-passing and therefore decided to embrace that side of myself a bit more.

I don't need you to tell me about the African role in the slave trade nor do I care about who was the worst. I'm guessing that I probably know more about this than you do, I was raised by someone who wrote a pretty well-respected book about this shit. The conclusion? They were all the worst. Everyone involved in the slave trade was the worst. It was all evil and it's evil to sit around and try to justify why England wasn't so bad after all and the others were ACTUALLY just as bad. It's a nasty waste of time. Honestly, mate, find a better fucking hobby. If you want to be proud of England maybe a good idea would be if all the generational wealth amassed by the slave trade was traced back to its origin and seized and used for the public good (and I don't mean a new dinner hall or whatever the fuck ever at Cambridge for some toffs to enjoy). Would you support that? No? What a surprise.

Well said, are you kidding?! The spelling and grammar is atrocious.

'Well said, are you kidding?! The spelling and grammar is atrocious.'

Couldn't give a rat's ass about spag. The content was the inconveniently truthful bit, obviously.

@callmebettie did you really just say "I don't see colour" and "half cast" and that you're "nervous around Black people because of BLM" in the same post 😹 good job mate it's like racist bingo around here today.

If anyone needed any proof that racism against Black people is alive and well in the UK...

I’m late to this, bloody hell! Of course English is a race! Is anyone saying Scottish, Welsh and Irish people aren’t a race?

I am mixed race - one of those races is English! The other is African.

Both my parents could be racially abused, FFS mumsnet is a strange place sometimes!