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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Is racism against the English acceptable?

792 replies

BabyBearRus · 26/07/2021 23:58

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

OP posts:
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DewDew83 · 27/07/2021 17:43

I'd quite happily never see either country again. Not missing much
This is undoubtedly a worse incidence of xenophobia than the one described in the OP.

SueSaid · 27/07/2021 17:44

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

The compensation was a legal/practical decision iirc - it was seen as the most expedient way to bring about an end to slavery.
Exactly.

I wonder why it took America until 1863 if 'there wasn't money in it anymore' as a pp suggested was the reason the UK ended it in1807?! I'd be ashamed to be American tbh, I mean we are all apparently responsible for our ancestors actions.

CrouchEndTiger12 · 27/07/2021 17:45

@DewDew83

I'd quite happily never see either country again. Not missing much This is undoubtedly a worse incidence of xenophobia than the one described in the OP.
Let me qualify that with whilst they feel comfortable telling us to get out their country I'd quite happily never go again. I say that as having Scottish parents.
elp30 · 27/07/2021 17:46

@magicwanda

The English are reviled even by the English. How many of you recoil in horror from the sunburned lager guzzling twats on holiday abroad

Rude Russians and loud Americans are much worse. In fact Americans are the reason I won't go back Mexico

Wow. You're very rude.

raskolnikova · 27/07/2021 17:47

Further to the 'English people are reviled by the English' - I've claimed to hate England/English people before, especially recently with Brexit and this government, which seems to want to ruin everything good about the country. But thinking rationally of course I don't. However there is a hard core of people on social media that do seem to believe that English people are shit in every possible way, which is pretty tedious and which is the point I tried to get at on page whatever. I mostly try and avoid social media anyway.

DewDew83 · 27/07/2021 17:47

I say that as having Scottish parents.
And Welsh grandparents no doubt Hmm

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/07/2021 17:49

Wroxie Britain had been considering and discussing for quite a while the morality of slavery. There were campaigners working for years before abolition, from a humanitarian pov.
Different times had different morals and we can't apply modern judgements to those people. I don't think Britain was perfect but I think changing for the better, even if not wholly morally motivated is a good thing.
But once you start to call people gammon and get personally insulting, you lose any moral right to sit in judgement of others.

CrouchEndTiger12 · 27/07/2021 17:49

@DewDew83

I say that as having Scottish parents. And Welsh grandparents no doubt Hmm
No how would that be possible.

Interestingly my Scottish mother hates Welsh people and Wales. Bleak and horrible she says.

So insular an outlook I've noticed.

DewDew83 · 27/07/2021 17:51

Interestingly my Scottish mother hates Welsh people and Wales. Bleak and horrible she says.
Sounds like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

midgemagneto · 27/07/2021 17:52

It's quite possible to have parents and grandparents from different parts of the uk

DewDew83 · 27/07/2021 17:57

It's quite possible to have parents and grandparents from different parts of the uk
Yup. And notwithstanding that it's obviously possible, the poster in question seemed to excuse her attitude towards both Scotland and Wales by relying on the fact she has Scottish parents. I'm not sure how that works, in relation to Wales, which was the point I was trying to make.

VladmirsPoutine · 27/07/2021 18:05

We were repaying the loans we had to take to repay the slave owners. The slave owners were repaid at the time.

Ah, that makes it much better then Hmm

Notonthestairs · 27/07/2021 18:14

Jaxhog I was referring to a previous posters assertion that Catholicism seemed older in Scotland than it does in England because of the architecture of urban churches.

I wasn't making a comment on the causes of the Reformation/the French wars of religion etc.

ButterflyCat2028 · 27/07/2021 18:16

Of course

They heard an accent, saw a skin colour and decided to insult the ethnicity they thought matched that persons ethnicity.

ButterflyCat2028 · 27/07/2021 18:17

Edit: of course it's still racism AND it is NOT acceptable. Ever.

mustlovegin · 27/07/2021 18:18

No child has the right to live where they grew up

Can anyone explain this wacky idea?

Whaam · 27/07/2021 18:18

I think if you read the posts by MeasuredApproach earlier, you'll find some pretty good examples of why Scottish, Irish and Welsh resentment isn't simply because of things that happened hundreds of years ago. It's also because of a sense of unfairness relating to the current system in the UK and the place of the other three nations in it. There are lots of reasons, some subtle and some more evident, that contribute to feelings of resentment in the other three nations. As others have rightly pointed out, prejudice is never acceptable. But it is also true that whitewashing history or ignoring the impact of a privileged position in a current situation is not acceptable either. The UK, as a whole, but specifically England, needs to really explore these feelings and the reasons for them before they can be addressed.

Your whole comment, @MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously, is reductionist. You are attempting to reduce centuries (including very recent history) to a few simple facts instead of looking at it hollistically as the extremely nuanced and complex history that it is.

For example, much recent Scottish resentment still stems from the Poll Tax, which was imposed on Scotland a year earlier than anywhere else in the UK by a government that Scotland voted very decidedly against. The Poll Tax ruined families, and the resentment is very real. Of course, that should not transfer into resentment towards a single person because of their nationality - doing that is always wrong- but there is a right there to feel resentment. It also true that the union with England, which at the time was incredibly unpopular among the general public, led to Culloden and the mass slaughter of thousands of people, the end of the Highland way of life, a literal ban on culture and the destruction of language.

I understand your perspective about class, and I also agree that many problems are due to a powerful ruling class. However, it is also reductionist to say that it is only about class - it's not. The political system in the UK is a major problem. It simply does not work for all of the constituent nations equally, and it breeds resentment. In my opinion, this is understandable.

With regards to the independence vote, as you say, the vote is just a snapshot of opinion at the time. Opinions change, and of course votes can be reheld. Not every week, but people change government (because they change opinion) often every five years. If the Scots' opinion has changed, for example because of Brexit (another example of how the UK political system is unfair and breeds resentment towards England), then of course there can and should be another vote. It's democracy. The Swiss have referendums four times a year.

However, that's off topic. I want to just end by taking issue with your "stop acting like a victim" comment. Again, it's reductionist. The UK and the relationships between the four nations are extremely complex. There have been many instances, many of which are in very recent history (i.e. Brexit, the Poll Tax, the British involvement in The Troubles, and so on) where people in the other three nations have had a legitimate right to feel angry, ignored, disrespected, frustrated, and, sometimes, victimised. Telling people just to swallow that and forget about it is ridiculous.

The only way to deal with prejudice is for there to be openness, honestly and a genuine conversation on all sides (prejudice is not just limited to Scottish people against English people -it can and does work both ways). With the kind of attitude that you have, that will never happen.

BrozTito · 27/07/2021 18:35

Thats nonsensense Noxie, aboloshing slavery cost britain silly amounts (40% of national budget) in compensation and lost trade. Dont make things up as you go along. www.taxjustice.net/2020/06/09/slavery-compensation-uk-questions/

BrozTito · 27/07/2021 18:37

*wroxie

BrozTito · 27/07/2021 18:48

Yes oakmaiden, she was clearly a nationalist simpleton desperate for some oppression points

Maddiemademe · 27/07/2021 18:54

Is it xenophobia and yes considered the same as a racist hate crime (info available on reporting a hate crime and also the Oxford Dictionary). YADNBU

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/07/2021 19:03

Since the discussion's turned to slavery, I've always found it fascinating that so little gets said about the African slave traders' own role in this

Interesting piece here from the BBC: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752

SourAppleChew · 27/07/2021 19:03

[quote Wroxie]@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously I can and I will tell an ignorant gammon that he's an ignorant gammon. Would you like some, too? Why the fuck do you think Britain stopped actively selling humans? It wasn't a crisis of conscience, it was conveniently politically and financially expedient at the time. The Americas had, by that time, a self-sustaining slave population, there wasn't money in it anymore. Being proud that they stopped when there wasn't any money in it any more is astonishingly idiotic and ignorant.[/quote]
It does undermine your argument, though, when you start using insults based on the colour of a person's skin.

Wroxie · 27/07/2021 19:09

Classic Mumsnet, a man posts some ignorant, racist nonsense which includes a sweet little line about how proud he is to be English because they decided to stop trading in human beings only AFTER they'd bled the trade dry and set up dynasties of generational wealth that persist until today but I'm the one who's lost the moral high ground because I called a gammon a gammon.

My great-grandmother had stories from her own grandmother and mother who were born into slavery in Southern Mississippi. You lot don't deserve to know more than that because these stories are heartbreaking and precious to me but you seriously need to recalibrate your own moral compasses if you're defending this man against me.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 27/07/2021 19:12

Whaam you can't really discuss in detail hundreds of years of history on a Mumsnet post.
I would agree that the political system needs reform. Fptp can be unrepresentative for many people within the UK. Maybe some form of PR would be fairer
And while I do agree with you that the poll tax was awful, I would equally say that Thatcher's govt didn't act in the best interests of working class English people either. Certainly I don't recall her doing much to benefit my working class English parents!
Culloden again is something the English tend to get blamed for, but iirc many Scots fought with the British army. The aftermath was awful, but we are talking about the 1700s - punishments were harsh. Particularly for treason. The Highland clearances were not the sole fault of the English. Wasn't a lot of it to do with agricultural changes and Scottish landlords?
That said, I agree that a union which isn't wanted by ordinary people in either nation, causes more problems than it solves. But the fact remains that Scotland was asked and you cannot keep asking the same question every couple of years until you get a different result. What about the people who don't like the new result and argue for yet another referendum?