Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Hang on, Scotland wasn't colonised. It chose to enter the union. It was a Scottish king who became king of England in 1603. Financially Scotland does quite well out of it

Yes and no. It wasn't really a willing entry to the union. Scottish nobles invested all of the country's money into a failed scheme in Panama. Part of the terms of the bailout was joining a political union with England. It was deeply unpopular with the public, who didn't get a say in it and caused riots for many years. Scottish nobles agreed to it to avoid bankruptcy. This resulted in the Act of Union in 1707.

However, the Act of Crowns occurred in 1603. James was indeed a Scot, but had been raised separately from his mother, Mary Queen of Scots, who was beheaded by Elizabeth I. James subsequently moved the Scottish court to England, effectively dissolving the Scottish court.

Yes, historically Scotland has done well out of the union in terms of finances. Less so in terms of cultural and language losses. Whether Scotland is still doing well out of the union financially is currently the topic of quite fierce debate.

I'm as thick as pig shit. What I thought happened via my own eyes and ears - a whole group of people (Welsh locals and Welsh staff) turning from a non stop flow of English chatter to non stop Welsh chatter when a non-Welsh speaker started speaking in their midst as a not so subtle way of making me feel excluded and embarrassed because I was from across the border - they were clearly just talking about dildos as there is no Welsh translation and those were friendly and welcoming glances, not dagger stares and turning of backs. I am am humbled by my own idiocy and will never trust my own mental capacity ever again. I don't know how many more times I can also overstate that I LOVE WALES AND PEOPLE WHO LIVE THERE and THIS IS AN INFREQUENT EVENT BUT IT DID HAPPEN

@JustAnotherPoster00

Wales doesn't seem to have much appetite for independence.

The independence movement has certainly grown since 2016, if Scotland does get its own independence that will likely increase the Welsh movement

Only in plaid zones

@eirian171

Slightly off topic, but what annoys me is when news presenters (and presenters in general)are able to pronounce obscure place names in far flung parts of the world but can't be bothered to pronounce Welsh place names properly. The best one I've heard lately is Aberdulais (aber-dull-ice) pronounced aber-du-lay as if it was French - I had to rewind it to check I'd heard it correctly.

Oh this annoys me too, is the same with provincial English names and towns, often pronounced wrongly.

@Empressofthemundane

Scotland bankrupted themselves with the Darrien Adventure in Panama. And yes, Scotland joined with England through their king taking the throne. I’d like to understand better how the highland clearances are the fault of the English. Looks more like the Scottish nobility did it to their own peasants.

I’d also like to understand how some of Scotland is catholic and some Protestant. This isn’t covered adequately in schools. The reformation seems all King Henry VIII.

Hearing Welsh and Gaelic spoken doesn’t bother me in the slightest. It’s kind of interesting. I wish they took a little time in grade school to teach all the children how to read and pronounce the place names properly and maybe a simple greeting.

The Scottish Reformation was a completely different and separate process to the English one. Henry VIII's actions brought about the Anglican church, but the Scottish reformation was largely driven by Calvinism and John Knox and brought about the Presbyterian church.

What do you mean, @Empressofthemundane, by how some of Scotland is still Catholic and some Protestant? That's also the case in England. Though, in Scotland, the Highlands remained largely Catholic.

@SorryWoman

Its weird how if you mentioned something like WW2 and the holocaust in relation to germany (not even a century ago now) there would be a general recoiling as if you were being totally unreasonable (which you would be), but somehow the English are supposed to continue repenting for the empire.

I also think some national cultural identities only exist in the sense of being "not English" or "anti English": if they were to let go of anti English feeling, they would need to dig deeper to search for what the narrative is that holds the national community together in spirit. It's easier to just keep up the prejudice.

Oh wow that's quite a post, one a number of countries are still suffering from the legacy of colonisation today,

AND two what's countries only identify is based on hating the English?

Fairynick I think you'll find people do die because of anti English racism

@OldieAe

Thanks, I was very curious.

Looking around, it looks like England completely “converted” to Protestantism, and when I see Catholic Churches, mostly in urban areas, they are for relatively recent Irish immigrants and now European immigrants. Whereas the catholic presence in Scotland seems … older. It doesn’t feel like a recent reintroduction by immigrants, but something that endured.

[quote Empressofthemundane]@OldieAe

Thanks, I was very curious.

Looking around, it looks like England completely “converted” to Protestantism, and when I see Catholic Churches, mostly in urban areas, they are for relatively recent Irish immigrants and now European immigrants. Whereas the catholic presence in Scotland seems … older. It doesn’t feel like a recent reintroduction by immigrants, but something that endured.[/quote]
You understand that CoE took Catholic Churches and cathedrals for their own?

Catholic communities were hunted for 100's of years in England - no wonder they didn't build immediately!

(Am not catholic)

I'd love to know if the Church of Scotland also took over catholic places of worship or whether they built from scratch? Appreciate that's quite off topic!

It's just really saddening when you take your half Welsh dc there to experience nastiness. I don't think anybody today should be being treated badly because of history from hundreds of years ago.

No one has called you thick @EvenRosesHaveThorns. But you have not said which part of Wales this happened in. It does sound like a part of Wales where Welsh is the first language if all the locals and shop staff could speak fluent Welsh.

@lannistunut

But locals are free to sell their homes to anyone they want. That horse has bolted. Why would a local lose 100k so a local could afford it

Yes quite, but no point pretending holiday homes are anything other than a negative for an area. Holiday homes ruin communities.

Some locals here will now only sell to locals, or only for a residential home, but people lie. I like having tourists here, they don’t benefit me in any way but I am happy to see people having a nice holiday, as long as they are staying somewhere that doesn’t destroy Welsh communities. Plenty of other ways to have a nice holiday, you don’t need to rent an airbnb or holiday company house, or buy a second home. If you buy a second home or a holiday home in a Welsh village, (or in other affected places like Cornwall), you are morally bankrupt.

@Crystal90567

Fairynick I think you'll find people do die because of anti English racism

Please give even one example of a death that can be attributed to "Anti English Racism" in the last 50 years which wasn't an IRA bombing (which were wrong and terrible but to call the reasoning behind them "Anti-English Racism" would be astonishingly reductive and stupid as I'm sure you'd agree).

Whaam, so instead of feeling resentful towards England, Scotland needs to accept that it is where it is because of decisions made by Scottish rulers.
It all comes back to the wealthy and powerful oppressing the poor and weak, it has little to do with nationality per se. Plenty of English people have also had decisions foisted upon them by the ruling class.
The Act of Union was clearly not a good idea, at least not at that point. But none of that is England's fault. Blame your own nobility. And it's certainly not England's fault now - Scotland was asked and Scotland chose to remain part of that union. It doesn't matter how narrow the victory or the age of the voters. A vote is a snapshot of opinion at the time and those who don't like the result have to accept it because otherwise we would be having elections and votes every week!
Time to stop acting like a victim because it's no longer accurate to say the union is imposed.

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Whaam, so instead of feeling resentful towards England, Scotland needs to accept that it is where it is because of decisions made by Scottish rulers. It all comes back to the wealthy and powerful oppressing the poor and weak, it has little to do with nationality per se. Plenty of English people have also had decisions foisted upon them by the ruling class. The Act of Union was clearly not a good idea, at least not at that point. But none of that is England's fault. Blame your own nobility. And it's certainly not England's fault now - Scotland was asked and Scotland chose to remain part of that union. It doesn't matter how narrow the victory or the age of the voters. A vote is a snapshot of opinion at the time and those who don't like the result have to accept it because otherwise we would be having elections and votes every week! Time to stop acting like a victim because it's no longer accurate to say the union is imposed.

Stop acting like the victim, wow, a whole nation written off right there

Well, I did mean the people who are blaming England for all their ills and bearing resentment for perceived historical injustices. Thought that would have been obvious but clearly not.

Clearly not

'But none of that is England's fault. Blame your own nobility. And it's certainly not England's fault now - Scotland was asked and Scotland chose to remain part of that union'

Easier and more simple for some to ignore the pesky facts and just blame 'The English' isn’t it.

@SorryWoman

Its weird how if you mentioned something like WW2 and the holocaust in relation to germany (not even a century ago now) there would be a general recoiling as if you were being totally unreasonable (which you would be), but somehow the English are supposed to continue repenting for the empire.

I also think some national cultural identities only exist in the sense of being "not English" or "anti English": if they were to let go of anti English feeling, they would need to dig deeper to search for what the narrative is that holds the national community together in spirit. It's easier to just keep up the prejudice.

Germans never act proud of the Nazis and the Holocaust though, there are a lot of English people who seem to be very proud of the empire and think that the countries invaded should almost be thanking them

Bigotry/xenophobia/prejudice isn't acceptable about any nationality, including the English

@Delphinia

Bigotry/xenophobia/prejudice isn't acceptable about any nationality, including the English

👏👏

I'm English (although actually a mixture of Welsh, English and Irish if you want to be specific).

I've travelled to all parts of the UK and have never seen or heard any anti-English sentiment. Unless they are all saying it behind my back?! I have been welcomed all over.

And as an aside (and not wanting to suggest a race to the bottom) I used to work at a major football stadium and can confirm that all countries have an issue with dickheads who want a fight. The worst I experienced personally were Cardiff and Napoli fans for their sheer glee in causing trouble. I certainly wouldn't hold those idiots as examples of their cities or countries though

The worst I experienced personally were Cardiff and Napoli fans for their sheer glee in causing trouble. I certainly wouldn't hold those idiots as examples of their cities or countries though

Cardiff fans do have a bit of a reputation. Wales fans however do not - they are very well behaved, popular and welcomed wherever they go.

To be honest a lot of the Cardiff fans were nice - just a few groups who were not. They wanted to punch me apparently as being a petite blonde woman I was obviously just who they wanted to punch 🤷🏼‍♀️