To advise my soon against an apprenticeship in customer service?

[BoltonDoowar]

DS dropped out of college at 17 and is now 18. He has average GCSE’s. His girlfriend is 14 weeks pregnant.

Despite applying to loads of full-time ‘starter’ jobs, he can’t even secure as much as an interview for a 9-5 call centre type thing. Due to having a child on the way he does not want part-time. He wants to be able to afford a flat to rent with his girlfriend. If they can’t do that by the time baby is born me and the girlfriend’s parents will still have them of course but they actively want their own place with their baby. And I think me and the girlfriend’s parents both mutually agree that while we won’t kick them out, we’d like them to actively start putting plans in place as we both have younger teens to think about as well.

DS is becoming disheartened. There are plenty of hospitality jobs about but he’s had a couple of interviews where they’ve been listed as full-time waiter and then at the interview he finds out it’s 15 hours a week. He wants an office day job.

He’s now looking at apprenticeships and has been offered one at a local office. It will be a mix of customer service and sales. Except it pays the apprentice wage of £4.30. The job description also basically says he’ll be a normal worker at the office and then will do one day a week at a training centre. It sounds like the office will do bugger all training themselves. He’ll get “Level 2 Customer Service” afterwards. I feel that’s basically meaningless, for roles like that they don’t want specific qualifications!

Before people say it’s not up to me, DS came to me frazzled asking for advice. I think it’s all a bit of a ploy for some cheap labour. He will be earning about bugger all a day for 7.5 hours work. DS’s plan is to use it for the experience and then once closer to baby being due he’ll apply for other office jobs.

I feel it’s a complete waste of time. If he wants to do that he might as well do one of the hospitality jobs for 15 hours a week and earn more than the apprenticeship and then move on in a few months. That way he’d have much more time in the day to support his girlfriend who is having a hellish pregnancy so far and apply for more suitable jobs to support them.

I’ve told DS I only think he should do it if he explains he has a baby on the way and therefore needs minimum wage because he’s not a typical ‘school-leaver’ who can get by fine on £4.30 for the experience. I think they may still end up taking him because they stupidly let slip at interview that DS is the only person who applied (and tbh, I’m not really surprised because I bet even kids can see right through them). We also both had a chat with his girlfriend today because obviously she should get a say as well and she agrees with me that’s it’s only worth doing if he explains his circumstances to negotiate being allowed minimum wage. If it was a proper apprenticeship which would help him get his foot in the door in a good sector and be an investment for the future of his family it’d be a different matter. But it isn’t.

Any thoughts?

Sorry but I think that course is bullshit. I learnt all of that during my first retail job as a teenager. Don’t sell yourself short - he can find a basic customer service job that isn’t apprentice pay.

I reckon it’s targeted to the long-term unemployed or those with learning difficulties to give them a slight boost in job hunting, but other than that it’s not a tangible qualification

Is he not interested in a trade? Those are very well paid once trained up.

Can he look at local apprenticeships such as plumbing or electricians (if he's interested in that sort of thing), it might be minimum wage but at least he gets a useful qualification at the end of it. Plus when fully qualified it's a trade that could earn well and he could easily work for himself

A friend of mine was in a similar position to your son. She did a level 2 customer service apprenticeship for a year or so, then went on to do a Level 3 in marketing elsewhere on minimum wage, now works in digital marketing on £32k a year and is still under 25.
She earns about 10k more than most of the rest of our friends - who all went to uni.

Would he join the army? Full time, wage, training and prospects.

I think a skilled trade apprenticeship would be a great option if available but if he wants 9-5 office work and you've listed what's available locally then I think this is a better entry point than a hospitality job (although no reason he couldn't do a few hours in a pub to make a bit extra, I used to).

It would be office experience which would be valuable if looking at civil service, local govt, progressing in admin, or training in something like HR or finance later on.

What line of business are the company in? Maybe it would be a foot in the door to something more interesting internally? Plus, if he did the NVQ, it would show progression and completion of relevant qualifications. It would be more of a step in the right direction than an instant ideal job but I think much easier to progress from in the type of field he wants than hospitality work. I think he would be wise to try and negotiate for min wage although his approach should not be 'I am having a baby therefore am more entitled'.

If I was recruiting an admin or junior manager, I would be more impressed by this than a part time bar job although i do agree that customer service doesn't really need an apprenticeship.

Definitely look at the QA apprenticeships site if he hasn't already OP. Worth applying if he could possibly take to an IT job.

'The when you consider DS’s additional circumstances...ridiculous'

seriously he should have thought about it before getting his girlfriend pregnant without a stable job, no good getting her pregnant and then moaning about how much jobs pay.

Take the apprenticeship if it’s offered, a job is better than no job at this point and hospitality is incredibly difficult to get out of.

Negotiate for more pay if possible, but please don’t phrase it as wanting to be paid minimum wage - they are already offering minimum wage for the job they’ve offered - there’s an enhanced rate for older apprentices which he could maybe negotiate up to.

Then he can take time to look at other jobs/apprenticeships that might suit him more but at least he’ll be bringing in something to support his child in the meantime.

@thinkingaboutitall

Sorry but I think that course is bullshit. I learnt all of that during my first retail job as a teenager. Don’t sell yourself short - he can find a basic customer service job that isn’t apprentice pay.

I reckon it’s targeted to the long-term unemployed or those with learning difficulties to give them a slight boost in job hunting, but other than that it’s not a tangible qualification

Be as sorry as you like. Many young people these days have absolutely no idea and no self confidence when they go for a first job, often later than many of us would have done.

Customer service, shop floor sales is only a dead end if that's all you do with it. The L2 is designed specifially for those with few/poor GCSE grades. It builds on use of math and English, understanding the basic and wider ins and out of an industry and highlights the next steps as a career progression.

You reckon almost right. But it isn't aimed at people with ELDs, that would be a L1 to help build their confidence, sense of achievement and to strengthen math, English and general communication.

Can you guess what I used to do? I ran an FE/HE department that taught the IT, math and English elements to many kinds of apprentices. Lots of parents reckoned they were a waste of time. Many students arrived with a gobby attitude based on that, a fear of looking tupid, useless. But most left with a sense of achievement and signed up for the next level - L3 - without fully appreciating it's the equivalent of 2 A levels.

If you don't rate them, walk on. But many kids for whom education has been nothing but a hellof repeated cycle of torturous and pointless English and math GCSE lessons, failed exams, being told they are stupid etc etc, an apprenticeship can be life changing. No matter what the sector.

He would be better to work part time in hospitality, they will get working tax credit which will more or less bring the money up to a full time wage, she will also get child benefit. They should still be able to afford their own place. With his spare hours he could do a college course to improve his chances of better positions whilst also applying for more full time work

I think it sounds like a sensible foot in the door. The reality is that for call centre jobs he will be competing with people with job experience, grads etc and comparatively he will be less appealing.

I run a business in a different industry which does apprenticeships, but also recruits at the level above. The difference in effort required to train up a school leaver apprentice vs a slightly older person with some job experience - even in a totally different field - is always very noticeable. And the reality is that if the apprenticeship didn't exist those school leavers would almost never get the foot in the door. There are too many other people with experience, qualifications (even if unrelated), and just greater maturity who tend to interview better and get up to speed faster.

I don't think the qualification is a huge deal in this case, although it's worth having, but job hunting after being in the role for a year with solid practical experience on his CV, good examples to discuss at interview, and so on, will be very different and so the experience will open a lot of doors for him. It's a start and that's what he needs.

@IamtheDevilsAvocado

It's not really a proper apprenticeship is it? Unless he wants a very basic qual.

This is so different from the plumber/building /care apprenticeship roles...

Customer services isn't a trade really is it?

Pal's daughter had worked in a busy seaside canteen waiting table etc.. Popular and reliable. They offered her na apprenticeships... Which would be less than half the wage she had been earning at 14.... And the training? In house... Exactly what she already had learnt and had been performing for the last 3 years!

They weren't surprised when she turned it down... And oh yes... She had been the unofficial trainer for one of the apprentices when she was still at school the previous year... As she knew the job well.... Utterly daft!

Why do people on Mumsnet insist on putting other people’s qualifications down? I did a modern apprenticeship and was earning £60,000 by 26. It’s an absolutely fine qualification for a 17 year old, nobody has said he is going to stop there.

I’d love to know what qualifications you have that qualify you to pass judgements about what is a ‘proper’ apprenticeship and what isn’t.

Would he get a free meal plus tips in the hospitality job? Might make it more worth it. If he can do that alongside a college course and more time to support his girlfriend, I'd go for that.

The idea of getting a hospitality job and studying alongside is great in theory but if he got demotivated at school, is working probably unsociable hours on his feet, as well as looking after a baby, I'm not sure this is setting him up to succeed. At least for now. Obv not saying he could never return to education but it all sounds a lot for a young person in his circumstances. At least with the apprenticeship there is accountability to the company for the studying and more security for the work than hospitality.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I am a young person and I work with the unemployed; I stand by what I said. The qualification is useless when he could gain the same skills and earn more money without the apprenticeship. It’s a CV/interview technique problem here, NOT a qualification issue.

Take the apprenticeship and get a qualification.
If he's any good he should get a full time job at the end of it.

I got an apprenticeship in customer service because people want experience. I stayed 4 months whilst looking for other work as I now had experience.

I told them I'd been offered another job but would rather stay as a full time employee. I'd proven myself so they agreed and allowed me to finish the course as it meant they were still getting funding.

I left about 6 months after the course finished for a job that paid about £5k more than my full time salary.

It's not a bad way to get your foot in the door. Nobody's going to force him to stay if he gets a better offer.

What qualifications does he have for an "office" job?! He needs to start cutting his coat according to his cloth.

Of course he needs to take the apprenticeship, his dream job is absolutely not just sitting round the next corner waiting for him.

@BoltonDoowar

DS dropped out of college at 17 and is now 18. He has average GCSE’s. His girlfriend is 14 weeks pregnant.

Despite applying to loads of full-time ‘starter’ jobs, he can’t even secure as much as an interview for a 9-5 call centre type thing. Due to having a child on the way he does not want part-time. He wants to be able to afford a flat to rent with his girlfriend. If they can’t do that by the time baby is born me and the girlfriend’s parents will still have them of course but they actively want their own place with their baby. And I think me and the girlfriend’s parents both mutually agree that while we won’t kick them out, we’d like them to actively start putting plans in place as we both have younger teens to think about as well.

DS is becoming disheartened. There are plenty of hospitality jobs about but he’s had a couple of interviews where they’ve been listed as full-time waiter and then at the interview he finds out it’s 15 hours a week. He wants an office day job.

He’s now looking at apprenticeships and has been offered one at a local office. It will be a mix of customer service and sales. Except it pays the apprentice wage of £4.30. The job description also basically says he’ll be a normal worker at the office and then will do one day a week at a training centre. It sounds like the office will do bugger all training themselves. He’ll get “Level 2 Customer Service” afterwards. I feel that’s basically meaningless, for roles like that they don’t want specific qualifications!

Before people say it’s not up to me, DS came to me frazzled asking for advice. I think it’s all a bit of a ploy for some cheap labour. He will be earning about bugger all a day for 7.5 hours work. DS’s plan is to use it for the experience and then once closer to baby being due he’ll apply for other office jobs.

I feel it’s a complete waste of time. If he wants to do that he might as well do one of the hospitality jobs for 15 hours a week and earn more than the apprenticeship and then move on in a few months. That way he’d have much more time in the day to support his girlfriend who is having a hellish pregnancy so far and apply for more suitable jobs to support them.

I’ve told DS I only think he should do it if he explains he has a baby on the way and therefore needs minimum wage because he’s not a typical ‘school-leaver’ who can get by fine on £4.30 for the experience. I think they may still end up taking him because they stupidly let slip at interview that DS is the only person who applied (and tbh, I’m not really surprised because I bet even kids can see right through them). We also both had a chat with his girlfriend today because obviously she should get a say as well and she agrees with me that’s it’s only worth doing if he explains his circumstances to negotiate being allowed minimum wage. If it was a proper apprenticeship which would help him get his foot in the door in a good sector and be an investment for the future of his family it’d be a different matter. But it isn’t.

Any thoughts?

My friends son had 3 Cs at A Level and couldnt get more than part time retail for a good couple of years. Did some admin courses to try to get into an office role full time but noone would recruit him. In the end he did an apprenticeship and now has a full time post at that office and also has moved out with his girlfriend. No baby to think of however it was the foot in the door he needed. Bearing in mind he had A levels and more work experience (presumably) as well as courses which one would expect an office to find useful, I think if your son wants an office job it might not be a bad shout. They may have to claim universal credit to top them up

I work with young people looking for jobs and it's sad to see the narrow attitudes here. If he wants to work in an office why is everyone desperate to push him.into a trade? Yes they might be better paid but they don't suit everyone's skills. Also those apprenticeships tend to be highly competitive and in my experience most young people end up needing to do full time college initially to get the basics and be able to compete for the jobs, unless they have connections with employers. It will probably be obvious to an employer who is actually interested in the work and who is just applying because someone told them it pays well!

Yes in theory he could do an office admin or customer service job without the qualification , but in practice he hasn't been successful in finding one has he? As a previous poster said:
"If the apprenticeship didn't exist those school leavers would almost never get the foot in the door. There are too many other people with experience, qualifications (even if unrelated), and just greater maturity who tend to interview better and get up to speed faster."
You need to think of this as paid work experience and a foot in.the door to give him a better chance of getting a better job in the future. It's a shame it's not a business admin qualification but in the end I think the experience is more important.

Yes he could initially earn more in hospitality but he might never know how much week to week as the hours vary, and he would be away in the evenings which is, in my experience, by far the hardest time with a young baby.

I don’t think you’ve specifically mentioned it, but what is the contract term for the office apprenticeship? If permanent/fixed term for a year or two then any landlord/mortgage advisor will see this as more stable than a hospitality job. Not to jinx anything, but we saw what happened to hospitality with the lockdowns too. In terms of financial security and stability the office job seems more attractive in that respect especially if they want to have some guarantee on income for when baby arrives and be sure they can get a place of their own

I think you're being really picky tbh. The job market is brutal right now, lots of competition even for minimum wage jobs and employers have their pick of candidates.
Employers aren't going to care that your son has a baby on the way, that's not how salary negotiation works - they would only agree to pay more if he can show what value he can add...which, at 18 and with no experience, specific skills or qualifications, is very little, at this point. Apprentice wages are low because it takes time for the apprentice to become competent and start adding value as opposed to taking up resources to train them (yes, even in customer service).
The 9-5 office entry level jobs paying decent starter wages would look for some work experience, qualifications or evidence of interest in the sector (eg through extra curricular activities) and will have lots of young people competing for them, who have those things.
A qualification in customer service isn't worthless. Coupled with experience, it can lead to better pay if your son is prepared to work hard. Iceland in my town was advertising for store managers and were offering £30K, they were asking for experience and a qualification in customer service or something business related. I've also known people who started out on the shop floor in places like the Body Shop or in call centres and worked up to management, they earn decent enough money now. But they do have college qualifications or degrees and work lots of overtime, not a cushy 9-5.
Your son would either have to take the part time job and go to college to get a qualification, or if he doesn't like college then take the apprenticeship. It's very unlikely that he would get a full time 9-5 job with his current CV.

He's being quite picky limiting his hours, the office I'm in requires a degree, its not even a difficult job. He won't be the top choice for any employer I'm afraid. The country needs people with building trades, he could earn much more money.

I’d recommend the apprenticeship but what worries me is the dropping out of college bit. The CS apprenticeship has a huge assignment plus observation and discussion more akin to external examination and so as someone recruiting apprentices, I’d have reservations about him and he’d really need to be persuading me of his commitment. It’s no longer the NVQ and there is more emphasis on the employer providing a huge input into the training - so often local government or NHS apprenticeships are a better bet as they’re more geared up towards this. Smaller organisations see it as cheap labour and don’t fully understand the implications of taking on an apprentice - from your son’s perspective I’d want to know if they’ve been through the apprenticeship route previously.

As some people have said, there are some training organisations who do short customer service online courses, but they aren’t as full-on as the apprenticeship. (I did one of these courses myself in an area where my colleagues assess on the apprenticeship; plus I also marked on these courses and they were really only a snapshot of the subject area).