To wonder why MN is so unpleasant about SAHMs?

[crinklyfoil]

While I know there are cases when women aren’t married and don’t own property and are in a vulnerable position, I’m not talking about posters who are concerned about women.

I’m talking about posters who believe that SAHMs have no say in finances, should ‘get a job’ and are somehow lazy.

A FT childcare place costs around £800 a month. If you have more than one child, realistically for many women, ‘getting a job’ will mean working at a loss. Not to mention problems with shift work at the lower paid end of the spectrum (retail work and care work.)

Is it really so awful that having a SAHM might just work really well for some families? That some women might thoroughly enjoy it and that it’s part of a mutually beneficial relationship in the context of the whole family?

Or should everyone just get a job, regardless of how miserable and poor it makes the whole family?!

@Mrs08

I'd say it's more common to find those views from those who do not have to pay for childcare...those whose dc are cared for by family for example.

Preach

@HavelockVetinari

Posters claiming to have never seen prejudice against SAHMs on MN are being extremely selective in their viewing and recall

I've never been a SAHM, but I have noticed a lot of snide comments directed at them - suggesting they'd be screwed if they split up from their spouse (I don't mean DP - unmarried women shouldn't SAH unless they're independently wealthy or have joint assets), or that they're setting a bad example for their children, that they are boring and insular, that they're lazy...etc.

A lot of it stems from jealousy - many parents would love to stay at home and resend having to work, so they convince themselves that they're somehow morally superior for going out to work.

For others they're unable to understand that not everyone is like them - not everyone wants a career.

With regards to childcare taking up all a SAHM's wage - yes there is some short-termism there amongst some SAHMs, as children are small for such a short time, and in that time they'd still be earning pension, as well as the possibility of progression. However, it's insulting to imply that none of these women are aware of the downsides. Some of them undoubtedly don't think it through, but for others it's a calculated choice to stay at home.

Essentially - people can be very rude about SAHMs, and often are just jealous or lacking empathy. Or are just nasty fuckers who love nothing more than to give someone else a kicking, protected by anonymity.

Quite right. There’s plenty of it on this thread!

It’s not a free choice when it’s made in the context of a society that expects women to make all the sacrifices when she’s a parent

Other women being the worst, you’ve even got posts on here saying it’s jealousy, women thinking other women should actually want to give up their careers ans stay home. Or trying to justify it by trying to negate childcare being a joint cost

However eighty percent of mothers work now and it’s increasing every year, so it’s a small minority in society who have this view.

@WoodPell

I always laugh at the raising-their-own-kids comments. I work 3 days a week and I am certainly run ragged enough on the other 4 to feel we're "raising" DS.

I'm another one who is surprised when SAHM say that childcare for one is their whole wage, outside London. Our nursery FT is about £900 a month with tax free childcare (£11kish) which would be a really low full time salary (35 hours per week at £9 is £16,380).

When my ds1 was born my ft wage was £12k

East Midlands

(This was before nmw)

@Musication

Where are these threads that say this? I haven't seen them.

There are lots, @Musication. Or at least lots of posts on threads. SAHMs are regularly told that they are providing a poor role model for their children, leaching off a man and not paying their own way, likely to end up in dire straits when (not if) their husband leaves them, unable to hold a conversation with another adult, how SAHMs are basically just unemployed, and my personal favourite - "I would be SO bored, I just don't understand what you DO all day when you're a SAHM"

Although I work from home and did so before everyone else was forced to, and am a student too, most people probably see me waving my kids off to school and being around all day and think I'm a SAHM. Couldn't care less.

And yes, there are posts the other way, with passive aggressive remarks from SAHM parents around leaving your kids with strangers or why bother having kids if you're not going to look after them. But less common.

When you compare to abroad the SAHM thing in the UK is so odd. I didn't meet any women under 50 in france or Germany who didn't have jobs.

All this talk about lack of career progression just doesn’t hold true in every or indeed a lot of jobs. Sorry but it is a very MC view to take.

As an aside, while I’m not a SAHM, I also have no interest at all in progressing in my career for the simple reason that it is more work and I don’t want that!

@WoodPell

I always laugh at the raising-their-own-kids comments. I work 3 days a week and I am certainly run ragged enough on the other 4 to feel we're "raising" DS.

I'm another one who is surprised when SAHM say that childcare for one is their whole wage, outside London. Our nursery FT is about £900 a month with tax free childcare (£11kish) which would be a really low full time salary (35 hours per week at £9 is £16,380).

£16-18k is a reasonably good full time wage in the town we live in, in South Norfolk. And yes child care would use up most of that wage.

@SorryWoman

When you compare to abroad the SAHM thing in the UK is so odd. I didn't meet any women under 50 in france or Germany who didn't have jobs.

The way new mothers and families are treated in Europe is very different to the UK

Good post, thelegohooverer.

what studies are these then
www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/01/26/the-roots-of-the-gender-pay-gap-lie-in-childhood

It feels infantilising and depressing for a woman just to stay at home and raise children and the UK should get into line with the rest of Europe and subsidise childcare more

SAH wasn’t an option for me, unless I’d lived off benefits. I agree each family should make their own decisions, and it’s no skin off my nose.

Threads about the issue where people ask for example if they were justified in making that decision against their DH wishes, or complaining that they do all the childcare and their career is on hold, are going to attract some criticism and some sympathy. Same for choosing to WOH and being less involved in DC daily lives. Life is juggling.

I’ve been around several years now with a couple of name changes and MN feels refreshingly unbiased to me (in this particular debate).

For what it's worth I actually think it is really hard work staying at home with kids

So do I. I had to do it because that’s what happened before kids started school in the 70s. It was five years of utter misery. I take my hat off to anyone who does it.

@Mrs08

(This was before nmw)

I'm talking about now. Any comments made are usually from women talking about their current situation and quoting the cost of a nursery place full time vs. their part time wage. My friend earning a decent salary, who could have gone PT, did this. I know women very vaguely thinking about children who have been put off by the exaggeration.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

No issue with whether a woman works or doesn’t but two things that piss me off:

1- “my partner works because he earns more”....always men who earn more

2- childcare will take all my wage- nope it’s a joint expense

Just say, I want to be a SAHM, that’s the truth and that’s ok.

They might well be the case. Those reasons are perfectly valid.

In my case the decision was taken out of my hands when DD developed some serious health issues, and I needed to be with her 24/7. I was in receipt of the highest level of DLA and carer's allowance.

Then when her health issues resolved I went back to work.

The lack of support I see on MN for SAHP is unpeasant and at times bullying.

Some people are adamant that being a sahp is not a "job"....and yet pay others to care for their dc whilst they work outside of the home. If you have to pay someone to do it, it's a job.

The irony

I also think a lot of people forget that many lower paid jobs have anti social hours where childcare isn’t available.

You can’t get a nursery at 6 am or 8pm.

’When you compare to abroad the SAHM thing in the UK is so odd. I didn't meet any women under 50 in france or Germany who didn't have jobs.’

Look at state subsidies and costs to parents of childcare in those countries.

But what if you are separated? Then all I hear is 'well I had 3 and was a single parent, worked full time and bought my home' where tf did that person but it and how on earth did they work full time and do it on their own, and yes, I'm talking about them saying they had no one! I assume those posts are by woman who were single parents under the Blair years and had lots of financial support.
I’m talking about posters who are very much still living/ with their partner

If you have more than one child a nursery place can easily be more than a FT wage.

I hadn't noticed it but people will have different opinions.

Being a stay at home mum, if you are at home all the time, is quite hard work. Part time not so bad, you get the best of both worlds when children are small.

My mother and mother in law didn't work and had equal say in finances. I don't they were particularly fulfilled, my mother in law always wished she had gone back to work; my mum was proud that she didn't have to (typical of her)!

Each to their own.

TBH, the culture of MN is quite bitchy in general, hence why you’ll feel that bitchy comments are directed at you whether you are WOHM or SAHM (there have been examples of each of the thread).

Oh. I've seen posts expressing concern about pensions /over reliance on partners which I think is an important point to consider when choosing to stay at home full time. But I've not noticed ones asking what they do all day! Maybe I've not read them. I've only recently moved to the UK after a long time working in various overseas places - sahms were very rare in all of the places I've been- pretty much everyone was working so the debate was less I guess

Some people are dicks to other people.

I have been a sahm but worked for most of the time I have been a parent. If someone wants to be a sahm and they can, thats great. Entirely their own choice.

However, getting a job is often the answer to many sahms issues. The IVF one, op used the words '100k salary isn't alot to raise a family on'. Apparently, the dh hadn't been earning that long. But she still didn't think it was much.

If a sahm wants more money coming into the household, then they need to look at ways they can achieve that.

She was also to get a job, because ots clear her husband doesn't actually, see it as joint money and she needs to protect herself and her own future. If that's the case.

Yes, there were a couple of dicks. Just like there's dicks on the threads where mothers want to stay wfh, because it gives a better work life balance. Its usually, sahms that have the main problem with that. There's several sahms, who go from wfh thread to wfh thread making up ridiculous reasons why people can't work from home. Non of which are actually true. Doesn't mean MN hates working mums. Doesn't even mean that most mners hate working mums.

It means some people are dicks.

I am not jealous of sahms or part time working parents. I have worked flexibly for years and earn an amazing wage. I get the best of both and am financially independent. If someone wants to be a sahm, that's fine. I prefer my situation, though.

But often not being a sahm is the solution to their problem.

Like if i posted that I never get to see my kids, people would suggest reducing my hours, or looking g to see if I could take a career break and be at home etc. Would that be hating on wohm?

I do also think that women need to think very carefully if they really are just giving up work, to save childcare fees. That few years, can damage their earning potential. Staying in work is often a long term strategy.

But it really is their choice.